Quote:
Originally Posted by ah-kay
I respect that you are a professional A/C engineer and I am only an amateur, but there are holes in your post.
1) You assume an EPA license to buy R-12. That may be a non-recurrence costs but it is a cost nonethess and is not included in your $45.
2) The rusting through of the evaporator may or may not be caused by the conversion, unless it was replaced when the conversion WAS done. The damage may be already there for an old car.
3) The same argumment is applicable to the cause of black death of the compressor after conversion.
4) Unless compressor/evaperator were replaced when the conversion was done, all this corrosion or black death were moot. They cannot be scientifically proven unless you have a 'control'.
5) Bingo means cold air. The sky is the limit to flush/change out hardware/redesigning to R134a./bigger condenser etc.
6) This is not a how low can you go issue but what can be achieved as an amateur. I can cut more costs if necessary, like no o-ring or receiver/drier change. Or just get a conversion kit from an Auto Shop.
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1) Okay, so add the $15 for the license to my total and then add $15 for flushing agent to yours. I do hope that you were planning on a complete flush of all oil before putting in your Ester.
2) The potential evaporator leak that I refer to would be due to the fact that R134a is so much more prone to developing acid when combined with moisture than is R12. This is not a myth or speculation, this is documented fact. To compensate for this, use a REALLY GOOD vacuum pump and evacuate overnight and you MIGHT prevent the corrosion factor. That said, how many DIYers have that kind of vacuum pump?
3) Black Death is no more or less common with conversions than with unconverted systems AS LONG AS the system is flushed of the mineral oil and an oil is used that will properly circulate with the 134. Black Death is not acid induced. In fact it is a much more common phenomenon with certain compressors with particular seal materials. It really doesn't play into the conversion equation very much.
4) The data I refer to, compared converted systems and their life span after conversion, to repaired systems retaining the use of R12 after service at similar points in the vehicles lives. Statistically the system retaining R12 lived a very long time before further service was needed, while the average 134 conversion went 2 years.
5) In your original post, bingo in context sounded as if you meant that all you had to do was buy the items in your list, charge the system and "bingo." My point was that there was much more labor involved in your conversion than what you indicated. You WERE considering a thorough conversion including flushing WERE'NT you? So as not to compare oranges to apples, it should be understand that whether a conversion was or was not done, any other problems with the system had to be corrected regardless of refrigerant choice.
6) The economics of this is NOT about doing it as cheaply as possible. If you want to do that, just evacuate the system and charge it with R134a. You do that and in most cases you will have cold air right away. The issue is doing something that will live. Assuming that the system in question has no other problems (which is Eutopian since if there were no other problems you wouldn't be working on it anyway) then recharging with R12 will cost only the amount for the R12. All your conversion costs are out of the equation.
The scenarios that REALLY blow me away are those where someone goes and spends $1,000 or more to convert to 134. The end result is a system that is statistically shorter lived and does not cool as well. The $1,000 or whatever it turns out to be, is spent so that they can save $30 or $40 on refrigerant. I guess I'm old enough that I learned a different kind of math such that I can't understand how that is economical.