You can run a diesel on vegetable - Page 3 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

miamimike · #31 02-18-2005, 04:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aklim

I thought that most of it, not all though, goes towards roadwork? I suppose if you look at it that way, yes. I am not willing to cut my nose to spite my face. My comment was inspired by proponents making it sound like a free lunch. No one actually lists out all the costs. It would be like if I said that my fuel is free. Well, if I went to drilling rigs and areas where there are oil spills and what not, gathered the oil, refined it, I'd have free fuel too. What no one lists are all the incidental expenses like time, for one. For me to go out in the cold winters, gather the stuff, etc,etc, I can't see it as being worthwhile.

A couple analogies--where I used to live in Pa. my Dad's Buddy used to tap his maple trees for sap and collect it and boil it down to Maple syrup, a lot of work--it tasted great-Would I do it?--no way, I would go to the store and buy a jug, but for him it was a labor love.Another friend is a Logger in Pa. and he could get ALL the free wood(mostly Ash-the Best firewood) but does he--No way Jose! He cranks up the Gas on the thermostat-too much work. For me its the same with the WVO conversion-keep in mind I don't have a MB like yours for the conversion-its an old 240 with indirect injection-beleive yours is direct like my VW-New Beetle TDI-would I do it on this car??No! For me. more the challenge of doing it just because many people are not. And for me it is a personal political statement which I will maintain privately but a Reason for sure.

#32 02-18-2005, 05:55 AM

My only concern with SVO or WVO is coking on the injectors and in the cylinders,
which I have read about here. I have also read that heating the oil eliminates the coking
problem what is the truth here?

coldwar · #33 02-18-2005, 07:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aklim

But is it worth the PITA? Wonder why the Cenex gas station stops selling B5 in the winter. How much would it cost if you were to hire someone to do all the work? That is something people leave out in the cost equation.

I was told by an Esso owner that Bio-D at the pump has to be mixed at the pump. In low winter temperatures, the Bio portion is equivalent to #2 Dino, and so will gel without heat. It is not cost effective in winter for fuel stations to heat their Bio tank for the sake of selling B5 to the very rare customer who wants it.

Bio home brew is the only way to go!

Dave from the cold cold cold north country

coldwar · #34 02-18-2005, 07:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bayside30

So what natural rubber componets should a person switching over to SVO or WVO be concerned with?. fuel lines, filters, are there any rubber parts in the fuel injection system? . Any other ideas out there..

SVO/WVO won't hurt the rubber, but Bio-D will if run in strong concentrates.

D

Alastair · #35 02-18-2005, 08:44 AM

If set up correctly, (Inj Timing adv 3 Degrees, New DNOSD240/261 nozzles) the OM 61x series engines are fine on Veggy as well as BioDiesel.

With BioDiesel you dont need to advance the timing.

Im currently running B100 here in the UK, average temps are 2-5 degrees C with some mornings down to -2 --Unfortunately not in a Mercedes! but a Citroen, no problems at all.

The 300D is still on straight Veg, but off the road needing bodywork repairs, having been attacked by rust, but still runs well on Veg!

Old300D · #36 02-18-2005, 09:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by coldwar

I was told by an Esso owner that Bio-D at the pump has to be mixed at the pump. In low winter temperatures, the Bio portion is equivalent to #2 Dino, and so will gel without heat. It is not cost effective in winter for fuel stations to heat their Bio tank for the sake of selling B5 to the very rare customer who wants it.

Bio home brew is the only way to go!

Dave from the cold cold cold north country

I splash mix mine in the tank. Like I said before, with winterized fuel, no problems at -20F and B40. B20 is sold at the pump in Denver, you don't need to heat it.

aklim · #37 02-18-2005, 09:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by whunter

To me it does matter that injection pump life is extended by years.

I'm sure a $1500 pump replacement is an issue. Like I have asked before, "What is the lifetime of this pump on average and how much are you extending it by using a said method." If the pump life is 20 years (just a figure I threw out) and you are giving me 2 years more and there are quite a few hoops to jump through, is it worth it? Now, if a pump lasts 5 years and I get 2 more, it becomes more worthwhile now. I feel it is a balance issue. Is that 2 years worth all that effort (No free lunch) or not? Well, it depends on what time is worth to an individual. If time is all you have and plenty of it, it might be. If you have a house in the suburbs, 2.3 kids and a dog and a wife to take care of, it might not be such a deal.

aklim · #38 02-18-2005, 12:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by miamimike

For me. more the challenge of doing it just because many people are not. And for me it is a personal political statement which I will maintain privately but a Reason for sure.

I suppose if you put it that way, it does make some sense. In my case, it is all a dollars and cents proposition. I mow my own lawn because the cheapest people to do it want $50 a time and it needs to be done 2.5 times a week in the summer. For over $100 a week, I think I can do it myself seeing as how it takes me 3 -4 hrs tops. I never found any political statement worth my time anyways because the mass of people doing it has never been large enough to do anything so I won't bother. I myself cannot afford to get pissed and boycott a store unless I know of enough people that will do it and hurt the store. IOW, I pick my battles. If I cannot win and soon, I walk away. I have a full enough plate without adding more to it. Like a woman with D cups trying to wear a B cup bra, my cup runneth over as it is without adding more.

hockeynut · #39 02-18-2005, 12:36 PM

Like a woman with D cups trying to wear a B cup bra, my cup runneth over as it is without adding more

Ah Aklim, back to sex again - well sort of

In regards to that particular Cenex, in my discussion with him (the fuel mgr) he seems very particular about his fuel. He apparently moves a lot of it and doesn't want any issues. Maybe once he starts selling it this spring (hopefully), he will gain a certain comfort level. Like I mentioned in another post, a small local station near me is selling B5 through the winter with no issues. I went and filled up my Jetta there even though it's out of my way. But now I find myself timing my fillups to occur at that Middleton Cenex due to the excellent premium he sells there. My mileage went up, less smoke on cold startups, etc. I could go 30 minutes out of my way for the B5, but I'd rather have that good premium the Cenex sells. Like I said, hopefully this spring he'll sell at least B5 or maybe even B20. He said he will continue with his premium additive package. Then we will have the best of both

aklim · #40 02-18-2005, 12:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hockeynut

Like a woman with D cups trying to wear a B cup bra, my cup runneth over as it is without adding more

Ah Aklim, back to sex again - well sort of

In regards to that particular Cenex, in my discussion with him (the fuel mgr) he seems very particular about his fuel. He apparently moves a lot of it and doesn't want any issues. Maybe once he starts selling it this spring (hopefully), he will gain a certain comfort level. Like I mentioned in another post, a small local station near me is selling B5 through the winter with no issues. I went and filled up my Jetta there even though it's out of my way. But now I find myself timing my fillups to occur at that Middleton Cenex due to the excellent premium he sells there. My mileage went up, less smoke on cold startups, etc. I could go 30 minutes out of my way for the B5, but I'd rather have that good premium the Cenex sells. Like I said, hopefully this spring he'll sell at least B5 or maybe even B20. He said he will continue with his premium additive package. Then we will have the best of both

Like someone mentioned, if they have one supply source that mixes it for them, it would be fine. However, if he has it mix at the pump from another tank then the freezing cold might be an issue when it comes to that because you will be mixing B100 with D2 in 50:1 to get B2 and the B100 might freeze in the tank.

I wouldn't go 30 mins out of my way for B5. Any environmental benifit you might get would have gone out in smoke. 30 mins there, 30 mins back is about 70-80 miles. Too much wear and tear and what not. Even if we were in the same boat as other diesel users (our injection pumps are not really vulnerable to ULSD according to Marhsall Booth) Other articles have suggested that B2 would be more than necessary. Unless B20 becomes cheaper than regular diesel and from what I am hearing, with the rebates and all, B5 would be as cheap as straight diesel, I don't see how it would make any financial sense.

hockeynut · #41 02-18-2005, 01:17 PM

I should clarify, it is a total of 30 minutes out of the way. None the less, I agree, not worth it to me at this point. My Jetta does have a pump it will benefit, but I currently use an additive for lubricity and cetane boost. I would rather buy an additive than spend 1/2 hour driving for B5. That gets us back to your bra analogy

coachgeo · #42 02-20-2005, 11:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alastair

If set up correctly, (Inj Timing adv 3 Degrees, New DNOSD240/261 nozzles) the OM 61x series engines are fine on Veggy as well as BioDiesel.

the 300D is still on straight Veg, ...

Alastair, can you give me more info.

Nozzles: I recently looked into these nozzels and word came back to me that via crossreferencing these nozzels are superceded to the ones now used in NEW 61x engines that in the Euro world have higher pressure injection pumps. He didnt think they would run right in an older style 617 with a lower pump pressure. I'm wondering if you two are talking about a different nozzles or not.

What price can you get the nozzels you speak of for over there on your side of the pond?

Timing: You mention 3 degrees change in timing. How did you come up with this number? Where do you change the timing?

Straight Oil 300D: What is the climate like there? What oil/fuel do you use? (WVO or new oil) What is the makeup of the oill (Rapseed? Soy?...)

Legal Eagle · #43 02-20-2005, 06:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pete Burton

wow, really? My son just finished a science project testing biodiesel flow in cold temps. He tested different mixtures. The best performer was BK50, made from soy based B100 that was from a fresh, 5 gal pail I purchased and good kerosene I use for my garage heater. At -13C, it was too gelled to flow through a standard MB prefilter. Like, at all. I think performance has a lot to do with what the average temp of the fuel is in the tank and lines. Given long enough time at -20F, I'd be amazed if it wasn't mush. Have you put a bottle of your B40 outside at those temps? I'm really interested in learning more about this. What do you think? Thanks!

I tossed a Masson jar with B20, B50 and B80 into my freezer, brought it down to -21C only the B20 wasn't hard, although even it wasn't usable fuel. As soon as it was at room telp it cleared right up within minutes, so all a system needs is to have heat present from tank to pump, usually done in a two tank system using the engine's coolant system running a heat exchanger through the fuel tank and coupling the fuel lines with the to and from coollant lines providing heat all the way from tank to pump.

aklim · #44 02-20-2005, 06:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Legal Eagle

I tossed a Masson jar with B20, B50 and B80 into my freezer, brought it down to -21C only the B20 wasn't hard, although even it wasn't usable fuel. As soon as it was at room telp it cleared right up within minutes, so all a system needs is to have heat present from tank to pump, usually done in a two tank system using the engine's coolant system running a heat exchanger through the fuel tank and coupling the fuel lines with the to and from coollant lines providing heat all the way from tank to pump.

Is that about 6 deg Farenheit?

Legal Eagle · #45 02-20-2005, 09:01 PM

-21C = 6 below F. Helpful conversion tool for just about any weight and measure. US/UK/IMP/metric and all combinations.
http://www.joshmadison.com/software/convert/

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