Parts Catalog Accessories Catalog How To Articles Tech Forums
Call Pelican Parts at 888-280-7799
Shopping Cart Cart | Project List | Order Status | Help




Go Back   PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum > Mercedes-Benz Tech Information and Support > Diesel Discussion > Alternative Fuels

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
  #16  
Old 03-23-2005, 10:30 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Yorktown, VA.
Posts: 94
I doubt there will be catastrophic damage from this

Look at the ratios being advocated. The curve for diesel fuel on that graph peaks at about 0.3%. Having said that, look at the links below. They indicate that acetone IS harder on seals than gasoline and diesel fuel. At the low concentrations we are talking about here though, the potential for significant damage to your seals from a short-term trial is probably not great. Note that I am not volunteering my car as a guinea pig.

http://www.efunda.com/designstandards/oring/oring_chemical.cfm?SM=none&SC=Diesel%20Oil#mat

http://www.efunda.com/designstandards/oring/oring_chemical.cfm?SM=none&SC=Acetone

http://www.efunda.com/designstandards/oring/oring_chemical.cfm?SM=none&SC=Gasoline%2C%20Automative#mat

I would wonder more about any changes in lubricty and how that would affect the life of my IP.

I doubt the mileage claims as well. It's all too good to be true. It reminds me of the 200 mpg carburetor ads that you used to see back in the 80's.

A simple way too test this without risking your engine would be to take 2 shallow dishes and add to each a carefully weighed amount of fuel. Add 0.3% of acetone to one dish and then set them both on a shelf. If the acetone works as advertised, the fuel with the acetone in it will evaporate more quickly. If this works, you should be able to see the effect by periodically weighing the dishes with an accurate balance.

Acetone is more
__________________
1985 300SD, 203,000 miles, dark blue

Lil Sarah says: "Poor old Grandma Blue Car...She's sad."

Last edited by RayG; 03-23-2005 at 10:41 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 03-23-2005, 10:36 AM
Hatterasguy's Avatar
Zero
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Milford, CT
Posts: 19,305
A gallon of Acetone costs a littel more then two gallons of diesel if I remember correctly. (diesel@ $2.50)

I think I will keep feeding my $700 IP and $300 injectors regular diesel. But acetone is a solvent so I bet it washes the oil off the cylinder walls. Ch ching $$$ $7k for a rebuilt 603.
__________________
2017 Chevy Silverado 1500 LTZ
2007 Tiara 3200

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government."
-Thomas Jefferson
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 03-23-2005, 10:48 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Wakefield, RI
Posts: 2,145
Gotta love the "glass is half empty" crowd on this board.... Given the very small percentages recommended to be added, and the fact that acetone is relatively cheap, additional cost is of very little concern IF the mileage gains are as advertised. Regarding the "damage" the acetone may cause. The answer is, who knows? The anecdotal evidence is promising and no one has offered negative evidence that it will hurt anything. Chemist or not it is possible that no one has tried this combination before in these ratios as fuel for a internal combustion engine. How this particular combination reacts in a cumbustion chamber may be a complete unknown as well. Considering how most of us seem to be concerned about our evaporating natural resources, fuel costs, mpg, etc. that biodiesel and WVO are discussed here regularly I am suprised at the backlash to a idea. Oh well, go back to your "head in the sand, I'm gonna drive old MB's forever (not possible since they will all eventually rust away), NANANANANA! I'm not listening", worlds. I'm gonna try it in the truck and will report findings here. RT
__________________
When all else fails, vote from the rooftops!
84' Mercedes Benz 300D Anthracite/black, 171K
03' Volkswagen Jetta TDI blue/black, 93K
93' Chevrolet C2500HD ExCab 6.5TD, Two-tone blue, 252K
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 03-23-2005, 11:01 AM
Old300D's Avatar
Biodiesel Fiend
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Denver, CO
Posts: 1,883
Quote:
Originally Posted by rwthomas1
Gotta love the "glass is half empty" crowd on this board.... Given the very small percentages recommended to be added, and the fact that acetone is relatively cheap, additional cost is of very little concern IF the mileage gains are as advertised. Regarding the "damage" the acetone may cause. The answer is, who knows? The anecdotal evidence is promising and no one has offered negative evidence that it will hurt anything. Chemist or not it is possible that no one has tried this combination before in these ratios as fuel for a internal combustion engine. How this particular combination reacts in a cumbustion chamber may be a complete unknown as well. Considering how most of us seem to be concerned about our evaporating natural resources, fuel costs, mpg, etc. that biodiesel and WVO are discussed here regularly I am suprised at the backlash to a idea. Oh well, go back to your "head in the sand, I'm gonna drive old MB's forever (not possible since they will all eventually rust away), NANANANANA! I'm not listening", worlds. I'm gonna try it in the truck and will report findings here. RT
This "half-empty" read the link, and noticed they are talking about GASSERS. Last I heard, diesel engines don't exactly have carburetors or fuel vaporization, or HC emissions issues.
__________________
'83 240D with 617.952 and 2.88
'01 VW Beetle TDI
'05 Jeep Liberty CRD
'89 Toyota 4x4, needs 2L-T
'78 280Z with L28ET - 12.86@110
Oil Burner Kartel #35

http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b1...oD/bioclip.jpg
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 03-23-2005, 12:15 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Manhattan, KS
Posts: 596
I am a chemist and I think that article is very close to horse crap. First of all, where are the references? There are an awful lot of claims that have no scientific justification. You could just as easily write an article saying peeing in your gas tank improves your mileage and people would probably believe that as well. If you don't have to prove what you are saying is correct (through the use of references or better yet real scientific data), then you can say anything and make an argument to back it up.

And don't try to compare this with the WVO movement. As most of us know, the first "diesel" engines were fueled with vegetable oils. So it isn't really that much of a leap of faith to fuel a modern diesel engine on veg. oil.

If you want to take the environmental route, from what I have read most acetone is currently produced from petrochemical feedstocks. There are fermentation pathways, but if you are going to go that route, why not produce ethanol which is already scientifically proven to be a suitable replacement for gasoline.
__________________
Keep everything as simple as possible-but no simpler--Albert Einstein
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 03-23-2005, 12:46 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Wakefield, RI
Posts: 2,145
Old300D,
You need a trip down to the Pearl Vision Center too SEE that the glass is half empty! Quote:
In a 10-gallon tank of gasoline, use two to three ounces of pure acetone to obtain excellent mileage improvements. In a ten-gallon tank of diesel fuel, use from 1 to 2 ounces of acetone. Performance goes too. Use about a teaspoon of acetone in the fuel tank of a lawnmower or snowblower.
That was cut-n-pasted right from the webpage....
Habanero,
Going the environmentalist route is quite simple. Regardless of that fact that acetone is made from petroleum you are ignoring the fact that IF it increased mileage just from using very small quantities the overall result is LESS fuel used overall. Wouldn't that be a good thing? Maybe it is all BS but I can't fault them from trying and they aren't trying to sell me something either. RT
__________________
When all else fails, vote from the rooftops!
84' Mercedes Benz 300D Anthracite/black, 171K
03' Volkswagen Jetta TDI blue/black, 93K
93' Chevrolet C2500HD ExCab 6.5TD, Two-tone blue, 252K
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 03-23-2005, 12:50 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Yorktown, VA.
Posts: 94
Hey rwthomas1

I for one will be interested in hearing what your experience is. I love to hear about miracle cures for problems as long as there is data to back up the claims. Hard, verifiable, repeatable data.

It probably won't hurt anything. If it does I will be first to volunteer to contribute a crisp new dollar bill toward the purchase of your new IP.
__________________
1985 300SD, 203,000 miles, dark blue

Lil Sarah says: "Poor old Grandma Blue Car...She's sad."
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 03-23-2005, 01:42 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Annapolis, MD
Posts: 650
I don't see how a couple of ounces would hurt. My question is HOW can evaporating diesel faster result in more economy. The only way to get more economy is to use less fuel at the same speed. So, if I'm tooling down the road at 60, the only way to use less fuel is if I back off on the go-pedal. How can adding acetone allow me to do that? It would have to increase power at the same injection level and have the same power at a lower injection level. Doesn't add up to me.

But, I fillup every 4 days at the exact same place, and drive the same route with few differences so I'd be a good guinea pig (last fill up was 17.003 gallons at 509 miles = 29.9 mpg). I've got a gallon on my boat, maybe I'll stop by the marina and pick it up. Next fillup is Friday.
__________________
1984 300Sd 210k

Former cars:
1984 300D 445k (!!) (Strider) Original (and not rebuilt) engine and transmission. Currently running on V80 ( 80% vegetable oil, 20% petroleum products). Actually not, taking a WVO break.
1993 300d 2.5 275k. Current 120/day commuter
1981 300SD 188k (Hans) Killed by a deer
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 03-23-2005, 01:53 PM
aklim's Avatar
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Location: Greenfield WI, USA
Posts: 8,514
Quote:
Originally Posted by RayG
I would wonder more about any changes in lubricty and how that would affect the life of my IP.
According to Marshall Booth in another forum, lubricity has no effect on our IPs because they are not dependent on fuel for lubrication.

http://mbca.cartama.net/showthread.php?t=4886 Post 11
__________________
01 Ford Excursion Powerstroke
99 E300 Turbodiesel
91 Vette with 383 motor
05 Polaris Sportsman 800 EFI
06 Polaris Sportsman 500 EFI
03 SeaDoo GTX SC Red
03 SeaDoo GTX SC Yellow
04 Tailgator 21 ft Toy Hauler
11 Harley Davidson 883 SuperLow
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 03-23-2005, 01:57 PM
Tirebiter's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Southern California & Hawaii
Posts: 690
Danger! Beware!!

IF you used acetone, a magnetic ion gizmo, a tornado air stream gadget, super duper diesel additive, and slick 50 snot.............................

Your fuel tank might overflow while you are driving, eh?

However, wouldn't pure snake oil burn in our diesels?
__________________
You can get farther with a smile and a gun than you can with just a smile.

1984 300D
1985 300CD
1980 300SD
1993 SL500
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 03-23-2005, 02:01 PM
aklim's Avatar
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Location: Greenfield WI, USA
Posts: 8,514
Quote:
Originally Posted by Habanero
You could just as easily write an article saying peeing in your gas tank improves your mileage and people would probably believe that as well.

And don't try to compare this with the WVO movement. As most of us know, the first "diesel" engines were fueled with vegetable oils. So it isn't really that much of a leap of faith to fuel a modern diesel engine on veg. oil.

If you want to take the environmental route, from what I have read most acetone is currently produced from petrochemical feedstocks. There are fermentation pathways, but if you are going to go that route, why not produce ethanol which is already scientifically proven to be a suitable replacement for gasoline.

Well, if you pee in the tank, it might cause the engine not to work right. In which case, if the tow truck tows it far enough, you have mileage without using fuel so your mpg will actuall go up.

In 1892 Rudolf Diesel was issued a patent for a proposed engine that air would be compressed so much that the temperature would far exceed the ignition temperature of the fuel. Baron von Krupp and Machinenfabrik Augsburg Nurnberg Company in Germany backed Rudolf Diesel financially as well as providing engineers to work with him on the development of an engine that would burn coal dust, because there were mountains of useless coal dust piled up in the Ruhr valley. The first experimental engine was built in 1893 and used high pressure air to blast the coal dust into the combustion chamber. This engine exploded and further developments of using coal dust as a fuel failed, however a compression ignition engine that used oil as fuel was successful and a number of manufacturers were licensed to build similar engines.

The original oil burning engines used very crude mechanical injection equipment so Rudolf Diesel again began using air blast to provide atomization of the fuel as well as turbulence of the mixture. This was very successful and utilized in Rudolf Diesel's third engine built in 1895. This engine was very similar to engines being used today. It was a four-stroke cycle with 450psi compression. Progress in diesel engine development has since depended on improvements in fuel injection technology.


Just because that was what it was designed for 100 years ago doesn't mean that it is the same thing. I don't want to try powering my engine with coal dust either.

I try avoid ethanol gas becasue somehow, the car doesn't see to run as well on ethanol even at 10% levels. The engine power doesn't seem to be quite there and the car seems less responsive, IMO.
__________________
01 Ford Excursion Powerstroke
99 E300 Turbodiesel
91 Vette with 383 motor
05 Polaris Sportsman 800 EFI
06 Polaris Sportsman 500 EFI
03 SeaDoo GTX SC Red
03 SeaDoo GTX SC Yellow
04 Tailgator 21 ft Toy Hauler
11 Harley Davidson 883 SuperLow
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 03-23-2005, 02:50 PM
Old300D's Avatar
Biodiesel Fiend
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Denver, CO
Posts: 1,883
Quote:
Originally Posted by aklim
According to Marshall Booth in another forum, lubricity has no effect on our IPs because they are not dependent on fuel for lubrication.

http://mbca.cartama.net/showthread.php?t=4886 Post 11
While it's true that most components in the IP are lubricated with engine oil, I don't believe the Bosch IP does not benefit from lubrication in the fuel. There are parts in the pump that cannot be lubricated with engine oil, such as the plungers and cylinders. This guy on the linked thread claims
Quote:
There is NOTHING in the Mercedes fuel system that requires lubrication beyond what #1 diesel (kerosene) provides.
If no lubrication is required, we should have no problem running straight gasoline in our diesels, which is not the case. So to me the IP obviously DOES benefit from lubricating fuel.
__________________
'83 240D with 617.952 and 2.88
'01 VW Beetle TDI
'05 Jeep Liberty CRD
'89 Toyota 4x4, needs 2L-T
'78 280Z with L28ET - 12.86@110
Oil Burner Kartel #35

http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b1...oD/bioclip.jpg
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 03-23-2005, 11:02 PM
Hatterasguy's Avatar
Zero
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Milford, CT
Posts: 19,305
Don't think for one second our IP's are not lubed by fuel. Yes oil does run through them, but there are metal plungers inside. These plungers need fuel to keep them lubed and the tolerances(sp?) are very fine.
__________________
2017 Chevy Silverado 1500 LTZ
2007 Tiara 3200

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government."
-Thomas Jefferson
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 03-24-2005, 07:48 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Marin county,CA
Posts: 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by Old300D
This "half-empty" read the link, and noticed they are talking about GASSERS. Last I heard, diesel engines don't exactly have carburetors or fuel vaporization, or HC emissions issues.

I didn't reply to your first reply, yet I am compelled to do it with this one.
If you look at the graph with the a, b, c, d curves and will read the foot note you will see that the D curve is for Diesel. According to the person who conducted the research it gained about 20% with 2 OZ of acetone to 10 Gallons of Diesel. This is a ratio of 1 to 655. I'm willing to try it out.
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 03-24-2005, 10:14 AM
Banned
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Blue Point, NY
Posts: 25,396
Quote:
Originally Posted by yshahar
I didn't reply to your first reply, yet I am compelled to do it with this one.
If you look at the graph with the a, b, c, d curves and will read the foot note you will see that the D curve is for Diesel. According to the person who conducted the research it gained about 20% with 2 OZ of acetone to 10 Gallons of Diesel. This is a ratio of 1 to 655. I'm willing to try it out.
I was not immediately aware that the concentration is .06% (1.5 oz. to 20 g).

This concentration is so slight that any degradation of seals and plastic components would probably not be measurable. The risk of damage is minimal.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
240D Top Speed ? Benz240D Diesel Discussion 73 07-04-2011 12:48 PM
2.5 Turbo Fuel Mileage Question shertex Diesel Discussion 12 10-14-2004 12:57 PM
fuel mileage and injectors question ck42 Diesel Discussion 3 01-27-2004 12:36 PM
cheap ways to increase torque and reduce fuel for CLK320 Cab (W208) goodman888 Tech Help 0 02-11-2003 04:24 AM
Engine rpm = long life. Torque = fuel mileage and acceleration dabenz Diesel Discussion 1 04-26-2002 06:43 PM



All times are GMT -4. The time now is 07:28 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2018 Pelican Parts, LLC - Posts may be archived for display on the Peach Parts or Pelican Parts Website -    DMCA Registered Agent Contact Page