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  #1  
Old 04-06-2005, 09:00 PM
Rebe
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biodiesel

I was curious about buying biodiesel at the pump. Will it work in a diesel car without and modifications to it, and not inflict and problem in doing so?
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  #2  
Old 04-06-2005, 09:08 PM
BusyBenz
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Running B-20 biodiesel is fine, no mods. I haven't heard enough about B-100 other than I thought I read in a post here something about effecting rubber seals.

B-20 in my car now for three weeks and the engine is much much quieter and it runs real smooth now too! ..........BB
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  #3  
Old 04-06-2005, 10:14 PM
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Rebe,
Don't run biodiesel!! It will ruin your engine. Bring your MBZ diesel to me immediately and buy a Yugo to drive.

Seriously, I run straight WVO without mods, I run bio without mods, I run freaking used engine lube oils without mods...search the forum, there's plenty about running 616 and 617 diesels on a multiplicity of alternate fuels without any modifications. It's one of the things that makes these engines great!!
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  #4  
Old 04-06-2005, 10:33 PM
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I'd only reconsider if i had a new car still under warranty as some of the newest diesels (CDI, TDI, etc) do not warranty fuel related problems when running biodiesel. VW recently announced it's warranties would cover up to 5% biodiesel (B5) blends. No warranty to worry about and I'd run Bio if available. It provide more lubricant, with less emmisions and money stays in our country. It's every bit as good a fuel as Petrol Diesel and then some.
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  #5  
Old 04-06-2005, 10:59 PM
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I run B100

I am currently running B100 in my 300TD. You don't have to modify anything in the car. But you do have to change both fuel filters fuel filters frequently for the first little while when you start running B100. The biodiesel cleans out the system a little. You also eventually will have to change all the rubber fuel lines with synthetic ones because the biodiesel will eat through the rubber. The hoses don't have to be tended to for quite awhile (assuming they are in good shape). Also when the temprature outside starts getting pretty low (around freezing) you will either have to mix with petoleum diesel, or put in some kind of anti-geling addative. There is lots of info on the web. Good luck. Hope you join the biodiesel gang.
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  #6  
Old 04-06-2005, 11:35 PM
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My 25 y/o Benz never had any filter issues when I switched to B100.
The injector overflow lines started weeping, gradually getting worse, I let em go for a half-year b4 I bothered to replace them.
That line under the fuel tank has started weeping, guess I will order that part soon.
It is true that eventually the soft rubber lines will go. Some are getting Viton (expensive) to replace it, but I think if you only plan on owning the car for another 20 years, the MBZ stuff will do just fine. Plus new MBZ line is BD resistant anyways, so I am told as of '98.
I do wonder if as the line degrades if it could introduce crud into your system....
My car does like BD. I did a diesel purge after two years on and off BD, and there was NO crud, zero. That stuff is a fairly good solvent as well. Hope it cleans up whatever coking the straight oil might leave...
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  #7  
Old 04-07-2005, 12:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Biodiesel300TD
I am currently running B100 in my 300TD. You don't have to modify anything in the car. But you do have to change both fuel filters fuel filters frequently for the first little while when you start running B100. The biodiesel cleans out the system a little. You also eventually will have to change all the rubber fuel lines with synthetic ones because the biodiesel will eat through the rubber. The hoses don't have to be tended to for quite awhile (assuming they are in good shape). Also when the temprature outside starts getting pretty low (around freezing) you will either have to mix with petoleum diesel, or put in some kind of anti-geling addative. There is lots of info on the web. Good luck. Hope you join the biodiesel gang.
Hey BioDiesel300TD,

I too live in Eugene and drive a 300TD that is powered by biodesiel. We should get together sometime and compare cars and bio stories.

Gary
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  #8  
Old 04-07-2005, 06:57 AM
Rebe
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biodiesel

What kind of prices are you paying for biodiesel? Is there any kind of location in different states that shows where it is available?
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  #9  
Old 04-07-2005, 08:32 AM
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Biodiesel is usually fine for older cars unless you have old type seals (i.e not Viton) which can suffer. But you need to take care with with newer generation very high pressure pump systems. "Biodiesel" is a Methyl Ester which has poor lubrication properties and as a chemical is quite unpleasant.

So it is OK mixed in small proportions with normal diesel but must have lubricity additives. But if you read the MB handbook on new diesel cars you will see that it is not a "permitted fuel" and I have heard a tale of a warranty claims being rejected where use of home made 100% biodiesel had rendered the pump & injectors scrap.
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  #10  
Old 04-07-2005, 09:20 AM
Fimum Fit
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Satch, I think you've got it upside down:

Biodiesel is frequently recommended as a lubricity additive and as a solution to the lack of lubricity in current low-sulfur diesel fuels.
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  #11  
Old 04-07-2005, 09:51 AM
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"Biodiesel" is a Methyl Ester which has poor lubrication properties and as a chemical is quite unpleasant.

Biodiesel is a non toxic biodegradeable domestically grown fuel. The only thing unpleasant about biodiesel would be the cleansing your digestive tract would get if you drink it, ie find a toilet and have a big swig.

Gary T

'98 E300 132k
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  #12  
Old 04-07-2005, 10:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fimum Fit
Biodiesel is frequently recommended as a lubricity additive and as a solution to the lack of lubricity in current low-sulfur diesel fuels.
Sure you are not thinking of Modified Vegetable Oils or Straight Vegetable Oils? When you have treated the veggie oil to get "Biodiesel" as opposed to MVO or SVO, what is the fuel you end up with? A Methyl-Alkyl Ester compound.

When developing common rail fuel pumps RME (bio-diesel with up to 15% rape seed oil derived methyl esters) is one of the fuels used for accelerated wear tests as it has a much lower lubricity than ordinary Diesel.

In fact this fuel and the more extreme winter fuels (which are virtually kerosene) give premature high pressure fuel pump failure. This problem is exacerbated at high fuel temperatures.

Viscosity and thus lubricity decreases dramatically with temperature leading to scuffing of internal components. A pump seizure can also wreck your engine by preventing the camshaft from rotating, thus snapping your cambelt.

For anything with a modern CDi engine, avoid Methyl Ester biodiesel like the plague unless you are certain that it contains sufficient lubricity additives or just add a few quarts of SVO or MVO. The Bosch CP1 pump as found in CDi models until fairly recently failed frequently in Germany with their readily available Bio-diesel. So much so that DaimlerChrysler insisted on special tests for new pumps.

Rudolph Diesel's engines did not run at 4000 rpm plus, and with injection pressures of 23200 psi. These are the major engineering challenges for Diesel Fuel Injection equipment manufacturers and the bio diesel lobby both of whom obviously want to push "green fuels" but have been a bit coy about the fact that it is not all good news with modern high pressures diesels.

These fuels are not a problem for heavy duty engines as their pumps can be much bigger, and there is space to have an engine oil lubrication system for the pump. Older diesels or those with lower pressure systems do not suffer as they are not so critical of the lubricity quality of the fuel, but if they have rubber or other non synthetic seals you can get problems.

As for the toxicity of biodiesel, a commonly quoted factoid is that biodiesel has tested "less toxic" than table salt so it is non toxic. Hmmm. Does not take a lot of salt to kill you: try drinking seawater.
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  #13  
Old 04-07-2005, 11:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rebe
What kind of prices are you paying for biodiesel? Is there any kind of location in different states that shows where it is available?
Try this link below. I would reccomend calling ahead as certain places have only 5 gallon buckets and or sell B20/B100 only during certain hours.

http://www.biodiesel.org/buyingbiodiesel/retailfuelingsites/default.shtm
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  #14  
Old 04-07-2005, 03:02 PM
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garyrl--

I sent you a PM. Lets talk. email me ecoandrew@gmail.com
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  #15  
Old 04-07-2005, 03:12 PM
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When you have treated the veggie oil to get "Biodiesel"

Biodiesel is not treated vegetable oils. Biodiesel is created when veg oil is chemically reacted with an alcohol typically methanol in the presence of a catalyst, typically sodium hydroxide(lye). Veg oils are triglyceride's the chemical reaction removes the glycerin molecule and replaces it with a methyl molecule. It also breaks it from a tri type molecule to a mono type molecule, sorry I am not a chemist and cannot provide a more lucid description. The reason this is done is to lower the viscosity of veg oil.

RME (bio-diesel with up to 15% rape seed oil derived methyl esters) RME is made from 100% rapeseed/canola. any thing else is something else.

it has a much lower lubricity than ordinary Diesel.

According to ASTM D975 the lubricity of diesel using the SLBOCLE measuring method must be 2000 - 5000 grams
Similary ASTM D6751 Biodiesel must be greater then 7000 grams.

ASTM D975, Diesel, kinematic viscosity is 1.3 - 4.1
ASTM D 6751 Biodiesel, kinematic viscosity is 4.0-6.0,compared to veg oil of somewhere in the 40's. So Satch you are completely wrong about your knowledge of biodiesel.

Even at 1 to 2% blend biodiesel will overcome the low lubricity of ULSD( ultra low sulphur diesel) which is coming in 2006. So I would suggest that biodiesel is an excellant additive.

As for new engines and the high pressures, YES this presents a challenge to biodiesel as well as petrol diesel. the high pressures and violent action associated can cause polymerizationof the fuel as it is returned to the fuel tank. It is critical that biodiesel be ASTM spec fuel. We don't hear about pump problems from petrol diesel because everybody assumes that the fuel is the same, news flash the diesel in the US is some of the worst fuel in the world.

As for toxicity I wouldn't suggest that you drink it but if I had my choice I would drink gallons of biodiesel rather then one mouthful of petrol diesel. Your initial statement implied to me that biodiesel was more toxic then petrodiesel. Biodiesel can be stored and transported in single wall tanks, not so for any other fuel. It also has a flash point of around 300 F, Peterol diesel about 140 F.

I would not use biodiesel in any new common rail engine unless the warranty has expired or the manufacturer will stand behind their engine if biodiesel is used, these things are just too expensive.

Using biodiesel in oder engines is not recomended for engines olser then 1993-1996 due to the use of natural rubber hoses. How come in my '98 E300 there are fuel line issues even without the use of biodiesel?

If you have one of these new engines a) sweet nice ride B) if you are not comfortable using biodiesel don't, but please do not bad mouth it because you trust the evil you know and are uncofortable with something new. Please sit back, wait, watch, learn, and maybe we can convince you to give it at try later.

Satch I don't mean to come down on you but I feel I must speak up and correct misinformation that is circulating about this new environmentally friendly, DOMESTIC ( no Saudi $$$) fuel. It is new and needs wider acceptance through education about what biodiesel really is as compared to the rumors that misinformed people continue to spread.

Mostly if you buy or homebrew your biodiesel make sure it meets or exceeds the ASTM standard. This is CRITICAL, demand it from your supplier.

Thank you
Gary Tomlinson
Agri-Green Biodiesel
Fernie, B.C. Canada

'98 E300 132k
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