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  #1  
Old 04-13-2005, 07:04 PM
WANT '71 280SEL's Avatar
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Considering WVO for expermentation

I've spent the past two hours browsing various WVO threads and have a few basic questions. First of all, this would be for the SDL. I would only bother with this lightly during summer months when it wouldn't dip below 50F and I don't want to do any major modifications with extra tanks, heaters, etc. I was thinking to maybe just ask a couple restaurants if I could have some of their used oil every once in a while.

I read about filtering so I think I got a grasp on that. So how about if I just filtered it down then put it in the car? What do you guys think would be the most ideal concentration? I think the worst part for me would be finding it then filtering. How about if I just used the bucket method like spoken of in other threads. I could cut a hole in the top one with a filter there then it empties into a gathering bucket which could then be put in the car. Would that be sufficient or would I be dealing with a lot of clogged filters?

Bio-D is too expensive. As previously stated I'm just doing this as I think it will be a neat project, plus I like the idea of french fry smells from my exhaust pipe.

I'm hoping to make it to the next Detroit G2G so I can see other member's setups.

Thanks
David
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  #2  
Old 04-13-2005, 07:36 PM
bruiser's Avatar
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i wouldn't do it without a 2-tank system. just an opinion, but even if you filter down to 5 microns to make the oil clean, you're still going to have colder than optimum (160-180f) oil/diesel mix going into the ip at a lower viscosity than you want. plus, you'll have different densities of fuel in the tank, leading to the eventuality that you will end up running more or less straight wvo at a low temperature (not recommended). i don't know about what blend ratio might be safe, but i wouldn't want diesel and wvo in the same tank. other opinions accepted. if you really wanted to try, you could just get a plastic tank and run line with a solenoid switch and a filter to the tank, with a veg-therm on a switch (you don't want it heating diesel) to heat the oil a little more before the ip. not a system that'll get you 160f, and it may screw up your ip having to pump thick oil. that's not too much work and it'll only run you $250 or so. but i'm no expert, so i'm not actually recommending this system for warmer weather. just throwing an idea at you. actually, forget i said anything. just read my first sentence .
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  #3  
Old 04-14-2005, 09:38 AM
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WANT '71 280SEL,
I live in a mild "Mediterranean" climate where summer temperatures reach 40'C in mid summer and winter minimums sometimes get below 5'C.

SWMBO's '82 300D , non-turbo (Australia), has been running on a 50% average blend for 12 months. More WVO in summer, less in winter. I made a small coolant/fuel heat exchanger to overcome any small lumps of solid oil which may accumulate in the prefilter. This heat exchanger raises the blend to approx 60-80'C, depending on driving conditions. This is the only modification to the car.
This heat exchanger is made from a couple of pieces of copper pipe, brazes together, with connections for the coolant (outer pipe) and fuel (inner pipe). This is fed with coolant by teeing into the heater hose near the oil filter and at the return line at the LHS front of the engine. The heatexchanger is plumbed into the fuel line just before the prefilter.

Depending on your climate, you could use more or less WVO, need a better heater, or even heat the tank and fuel lines, additional electric heating of fuel line prior to the IP, and other possible modifications.

With respect to heating of the diesel, the vegetable oil will provide more IP lubrication even in a hot 5% blend with diesel, than LSD or ULSD has cold.

In Europe, OM617 diesel are routinely operated on cold 100% new veg oil.

My '84 300D runs a 2 tank WVO conversion where I start on biodiesel and when the engine warms up, I switch to 100% WVO. When I want to shutdown for long enough for the engine to cool down, I switch back to start tank 5 minutes before shutdown, to purge the WVO from the IP and injectors. I have a coolant/fuel heat exchanger in the WVO fuel line which has the WVO at 80'C as soon as the engine is at operating temperature.
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Fatmobile 3 84 300D 295kkm Silver grey/Blue int. 2 tank WVO - Recipient of TurboDesel engine.
Josephine '82 300D 390kkm White/Palamino int.
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  #4  
Old 04-14-2005, 12:42 PM
TwitchKitty's Avatar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WANT '71 280SEL
Would that be sufficient or would I be dealing with a lot of clogged filters?

Thanks
David
One of the issues with clogging filters that is not obvious at first glance is that the veg oil will partially solidify as it cools. So, just because it passes through your prefilters does not guarantee that it will pass through the filters on your car. Your filters do not necessarily get clogged with foreign particle material but can get clogged with clean veg oil. Used veg oil often has animal fat in it as it was used to cook meat. The same ideas apply to the animal tallow.

This is one of the reasons for using a fuel heater that doesn't seem to get mentioned by many of the self-proclaimed gurus.
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  #5  
Old 04-14-2005, 01:01 PM
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Without a two tank system, you are going to have cold thick oil splashing into a cold engine when you start it, which has been argued will lead to incomplete combustion of that oil. What happens to that unburnt fuel is debateable, but it has been suggested that coking and gumming could occur as a result.
I like having BD in my IP and injectors when I start cold, so whatever may happen in the former scenario is not my concern.
I cold filter my oil, takes a long time, but for a guy who uses 5 gallons a week or less, small potatos. If you cold filter, the oil will never solidify, anywhere in the system, provided to don't drive to colder climes.
Heating the tank, the lines to the engine compartment, mega-heating the oil b4 the IP with the fore-mentioned Vegtherm, and switching to BD for shutdown cover all the angles, imo.

The only two wise ways to do single tank imo are:
1. swapping injectors made for thick oil spray pattern, or blends. I don't want to swap the injectors to those designed for oil because then you shouldn't run regular diesel through them for any length of time, and I like to travel.
2. blends. I will not do this because a huge reason for geting on oil for me, is to get off petroleum amap. Some blend people are using 15-30% gasoline. Doesn't sound too environmentally sound to me.
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  #6  
Old 04-15-2005, 01:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimmy Joe
......
2. blends. I will not do this because a huge reason for geting on oil for me, is to get off petroleum amap. Some blend people are using 15-30% gasoline. Doesn't sound too environmentally sound to me.
IMHO Don't get trapped into the all or non senario. 70% WVO is a huge stance on the war of environmental responsibility. Besides if we put the fuel industry out of business we would be in a world of hurt cause our world runs also on all the "cheap" byproducts such as Plastics.
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  #7  
Old 04-15-2005, 04:01 AM
Jimmy Joe's Avatar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coachgeo
IMHO Don't get trapped into the all or non senario. 70% WVO is a huge stance on the war of environmental responsibility. Besides if we put the fuel industry out of business we would be in a world of hurt cause our world runs also on all the "cheap" byproducts such as Plastics.
I hear you. Any attempt is worthy, it all matters. I do not mean to pooh-pooh any attempts to reduce fossil dependence and subsequent pollution. But I did say it was my opinion, my suspicion anyway, that burning gasoline in a diesel engine doesn't seem sound. Therefore, I make my personal choices based on what I know and suspect.
I have no data to back that up. But gasoline cars, since the 70s, have had increasing pollution controls and catalytic converters to cun down on gas emmisions, diesels of the same time period do not have most of it, for various reasons, one being that diesel is a different fuel, with different emissions. It stands to reason that burning gas in a motor designed for diesel, with no emission control devices designed for it, could be nasty polluters.
Heck, biodiesel is 20% methonal, and we all know that is most often petroleum derived. Propane is petro byproduct. SVO is usually GM crop stuff, pesticides and all. Nothing is totally "clean." We do what we can. But I can not justify putting gasoline in my diesel. Why? Too many cleaner fuels (ie more responsible choices) to burn, imo.

I don't think it is time quite yet to concern about our little niche putting the fuel industry out of business. Quite the opposite, in all likellihood.
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Old 04-15-2005, 08:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimmy Joe
I cold filter my oil, takes a long time, but for a guy who uses 5 gallons a week or less, small potatos. If you cold filter, the oil will never solidify, anywhere in the system, provided to don't drive to colder climes.
I have seen problems with clogged filters without driving to colder climates. It is not at all unusual to see a 30 degree difference day and night in many places in this country and even more. One day to the next the temperature can change, that is planet earth for you.

I agree that cold filtering is the way to go but oil quality varies so much that depending on the oil you get and the temperature change you can be stuck on the side of the road changing filters on a cool night and then clog the next set thirty miles up the road. There are too many variables to say that this could never happen. Even if you cold filter and get clean oil as far as particulates are concerned and get some of the fats that congeal with temperature the remaining fats can congeal due to temperature and clog filters.

Once again, the worst oils for this would be hydrogenated or high tallow oil like that used to cook meat.

I have thought of refrigerating the oil before filtering it but after discussing it with fellow oil burners decided not to. I actually have a cube of oil in an old spare refrigerator that I was going to experiment with and never did it. Once again because I don't have to. If it came to this I would install a fuel heater on my car; haven't yet cause I haven't had to.

If you mess with veg oil enough you will see some weird problems. If you have have trouble solving normal car problems, veg oil may put you over the top and may not be for you. These problems look much easier when you are home at the keyboard than stuck on the side of the road somewhere. There will be times when you won't have anyone but yourself to solve these problems like when you are on the side of the road with veg car that won't start.

Fuel heaters are simple. If you need one you can probably build it yourself without spending a bunch of money or a bunch of time. You can build a coolant exchange heater out of pipe fittings or an electric heater out of pipe fittings and a glow plug and a temperature switch. These ideas are discussed on the Internet. I am ready to build one when I need to but I haven't needed it yet. I live in a favorable climate and have a supply of good oil.

If this post is getting a rise out of you, take a deep breath and read my sig line. Repeat as necessary. This is not a personal attack, only an attempt to make life a little easier for someone who may tread this way. This post took way too damn long to write and I don't have the time or the energy to try to make it non-offensive to people who can't control their emotions, so just get a grip on yourself.
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Last edited by TwitchKitty; 04-15-2005 at 09:08 AM.
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  #9  
Old 04-15-2005, 09:26 AM
mespe's Avatar
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Speaking from experience,,,

I've gone the BD route, and I'm back to dino and WVO.

WVO blends with diesel. So that if the WVO would start to gel at say 35 degrees, mix it with diesel, and the gel point goes down a few degrees.

The two mix pretty well.

I know that from changing fuel filters on my F250, which burns WVO through a heated Hose in a hose (pics at http://www.benzbonz.biz)

Now in my 300SD, 1985 with close to 345K miles on it, I mix filtered WVO with diesel. I heat the WVO in it's cubbie by putting a plastic bag over it in the sunlight. Then with a fuel pump, I pump it through a filter into the tank.

Soon after I start the car, I get the wonderful smell of deep fried transportation.

Sure your gonna change fuel filters a little more often (actually quite a bit more often), but at $10 per fuel filter, If I burn up 50 gallons of WVO, that's still a savings of over $100.00, not to mention environmental aspects.

Yes you will have to fix yer vehicle on the side of the road. I have changed a few fuel filters on the side of the road.

I've even had to clean the IP pump inlet screen on my Ford. See pic's located in link above. Had to clean the screen when I picked up my tow dolly in Illinois, planning on going to Upstate Michigan to pick up some equipment this weekend, and yes I will take the truck, and enough tools to dismantle the IP should the screen get clogged again. (cross my fingers I don't have to do that again)

If you have any specific WVO questions,,,
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Old 04-15-2005, 09:40 AM
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http://benzbonz.biz/svo/screen.htm

I was looking for this picture a while back. It's you. I couldn't remember for the life of me where I had seen this.

Are you saying that you blend and use a fuel heater? I have been thinking of this since last fall and thought it was the way to go but I never saw anyone else doing it and got through the winter without it.
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  #11  
Old 04-15-2005, 10:05 AM
mespe's Avatar
benzbonz
 
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in the mercedes,,,

I just add WVO to the fuel tank. 30-70% WVO depends upon ambient temps.

In the truck, I added a second tank.

I woud like to find something that will melt that crud without having to take the darn thing apart.
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  #12  
Old 04-15-2005, 02:00 PM
WANT '71 280SEL's Avatar
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I would want to blend it. Thing is I'm just thinking about this for experimentation so I don't want a tank sitting in my trunk or more switches. I was hoping I could get some oil from a restaurant, filter it cold, then add so I would have a 30/70 blend or whatever you guys would recommend. I think I'm going to have to put this project on hold or stop it all together as it seems to be a pain.

Thanks
David
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Old 04-15-2005, 04:50 PM
Jimmy Joe's Avatar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WANT '71 280SEL
I would only bother with this lightly during summer months when it wouldn't dip below 50F and I don't want to do any major modifications with extra tanks, heaters, etc... I think the worst part for me would be finding it then filtering... I could cut a hole in the top one with a filter there then it empties into a gathering bucket which could then be put in the car. Would that be sufficient or would I be dealing with a lot of clogged filters?
Ya know, if you really don't want to deal with filtering, you can buy bulk oil cheaper than you can diesel now. At least here you can. $2.69 for dinodiesel at the pump, $2.39 a gallon for soy oil.
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Old 04-15-2005, 05:03 PM
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Dino diesel is $2.27 or so here. About the same as regular unleaded.

Thanks
David
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Old 04-15-2005, 05:21 PM
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Read up on settling oil for filtering. We would all love to filter on the fly, but there is a reason that we don't. Make sure you know about de-watering, too.
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