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  #16  
Old 04-20-2006, 08:06 AM
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Talk is cheap, and we know what opinions are like...

So, check the data.

If you want to run veggie oil,
modify the fuel, or modify the car.
Blending is a modification of fuel.
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  #17  
Old 04-20-2006, 08:26 AM
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Note that most people who give dire warnings against running blends have never done it. Many of these same people want to sell you a cure for the "problems". I do not sell anything to do with running veg oil in diesels and I have driven many miles running blends in my MB.

Run searches for coking, iodine, diesel to get more information. There is documentation that you will find on the web, on this site and at the infopop biodiesel site.

http://vegburner.co.uk/suitability.htm

Check out this link for engine suitability information on injectors and combustion chamber shape on MB diesels.

Note that WVO may refer to anything someone pumps out of a dumpster. It may be contaminated with any unknown waste. If you put garbage in your fuel tank you will have problems. Use only known quality sources of veg oil.
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Last edited by TwitchKitty; 04-20-2006 at 08:35 AM.
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  #18  
Old 04-20-2006, 03:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TwitchKitty

Note that WVO may refer to anything someone pumps out of a dumpster. It may be contaminated with any unknown waste. If you put garbage in your fuel tank you will have problems. Use only known quality sources of veg oil.
Exactly.
I think that maybe some folks have either gone the route, or heard of someone else going the route of using bad oil. That, or improper filtering, poor care of stored oil, or they started with a car already on its death-bed. This may be giving them the negative attitude towards all WVO usage. Ambient air temperature is critical. Running on WVO in some climates is a whole different ball game then other climates. It’s not a simple “Yes you can. No you can’t” deal. That’s why giving advice on it is so difficult. What works for me here in N.TX may not (will not) work for someone up north. Even with the same car and same oil. Likewise, what it may or may not do to your motor is probably a whole different set of issues as well.

The gathering of quality oil is the quintessential item in the WVO equation. I use oil from only one source. I know how old it is and what’s in it. I run it through a multiple filter process. I could easily cook with what I put in my tank. Hearing about folks using grill scrapings, animal fats, hydrogenated greases, etc. just gives me the creeps.
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  #19  
Old 04-20-2006, 04:15 PM
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Red face Ok then, Where is the best source for WVO?

I only have a few resturants that use VO and it's a Diner grille, and a chinese take out place. both have animal fats in them. will this not work if it is filtered and seperated well?
trying to get started with WVO... lots to learn.
John
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  #20  
Old 04-20-2006, 05:15 PM
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I only have a few resturants that use VO and it's a Diner grille, and a chinese take out place. both have animal fats in them. will this not work if it is filtered and seperated well?
trying to get started with WVO... lots to learn
You want the oil to be an amber honey colored(or light maple syrup), no hydrogenation and little animal fats. You could try "winterizing" the oil (cooling it) causing the saturated fats to congeal and using only the liquid portion of the oil that's left. Some people are running heat with blends. Personally I think this could lead to a false sense of security and possible filter clogging. When a 2 tank heated system runs crappy oil they have the assurance of start-ups on dino-diesel, blenders do not. It is possible to have the fats congeal in the fuel system if it gets cold out (if your using crappy oil). That is why a test batch should be mixed and put in a jar outside. Check it for congealing. My WVO stays liquid below 32F. Take the cleanest best smelling oil you can find. Then filter it down to 1 micron and see how it looks. You could go a step futher and mix a blend and let it settle for 2 weeks and see if that helps it clear up. Some guys wash the oil with water. Mixing water in it and shaking it up. Then they either heat it up to force settling or let gravity do it's thing for a couple of weeks. I've never have washed oil myself, but it could be an option, if you got the time,space and patience.
If you don't have good WVO, it's all a crap shoot IMO.

Quote:
Originally Posted by WVOtoGO
I’ve learned that the diesel will help induce the formation/separation of the wax from the VO, so next winter I’ll try something else
What problems did you have blending with Diesel? Jet-A is closer to kerosene and would be another good choice(if it's cost is low enough)



Quote:
Originally Posted by WVOtoGO
The gathering of quality oil is the quintessential item in the WVO equation. I use oil from only one source. I know how old it is and what’s in it. I run it through a multiple filter process. I could easily cook with what I put in my tank. Hearing about folks using grill scrapings, animal fats, hydrogenated greases, etc. just gives me the creeps.
For Blending, I couldn't agree more!
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  #21  
Old 04-20-2006, 08:22 PM
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Diesel fuel also has a Octane rating as well as a cetane rating. The octane # (RON+MON) is not the fuels resistance to burning (gasoline is much more volitile than diesel, let alone plant oils) but rather it's resistance to detonation (via pressure).http://www.prime-mover.org/Engines/GArticles/octane.html A gasoline engine can not tolerate low octane and cetane rated fuels(like middle distillate fuels). On the other hand a diesel engine can handel low octane fuels (i.e. diesel fuel = 15-25 octane) and loves high cetane. Plant oils generally have cetane ratings in the high 30's to low 40's (not great).

When RUG (87octane) is mixed with plant oil, the oil is most definitly changed chemically as is the gasoline. You can calculate what happens to the octane rating of gasoline. If you plug in your desired octane to be 15 or 25 in the calculator, use 87 for high octane value and 0 for low octane value. You'll see that the ratio suggested is right around 70/30 or 80/20. The same proportions some blenders are using that is equal to diesel fuels octane rating The RUG allows for oil thinning and better atomization and helps propagate the burning of the plant oil.


It has also been documented and studied that the addition of 9% alcohol to plant oils allow plant oils to be the same consistancy as diesel fuel. 2 tank heated systems burning plant oil, heating it to 80c are not attaining the same viscosity as diesel fuel. In fact if you read the report. The suggested temp for running plant oil is 130c to 150c. If your using 9% alcohol to thin and aid combustion of the plant oil, the temp can be decreased to 80c (just about where most MB's run).
How many 2 tank plant oil burners are heeding this advice? I'd venture to say, not many. This information doesn't seem to matter. So pyrolysis is the only game in town for burning veg oil in a diesel.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Diesel Giant
Gas contains octane among other chemicals which resists burning. Diesels need cetane in the fuel to increase its combustion potential.
The problem with cold veggie is not gelling, but the whole molecular chaine of molecules that need to either be heated, or changed chemically which you are not doing.
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Last edited by pmari; 04-20-2006 at 08:32 PM.
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  #22  
Old 04-20-2006, 08:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pmari
stuff

Thanks for the info man!

I'm currently running 10%new sunflower oil and 90% dinodiesel in my om602 turbo. THe car runs the same as with diesel, if not better. I don't have problems with too loud clatering or smoke (touches wood) so vo didn't affect anything except what my exhaust smells.

I plan on increasing the vo/diesel ratio a lot during summer. I already bought resistance wire, so i'll heat the injector lines and spin on fuel filter. Fattywagon claims that his injector heaters are 100w, but today i tried with a bit lower than 50w heater and within 5s it was so hot that I burned my fingers when i touched it (had to try it somehow and didn't excpect it would be so hot so fast). But for the first time I was sort of happy that I burned my finger . This means that I can heat both my injector lines and spin on fule filter using around 100w.
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  #23  
Old 04-20-2006, 08:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TwitchKitty
Note that most people who give dire warnings against running blends have never done it. Many of these same people want to sell you a cure for the "problems". I do not sell anything to do with running veg oil in diesels and I have driven many miles running blends in my MB.

Run searches for coking, iodine, diesel to get more information. There is documentation that you will find on the web, on this site and at the infopop biodiesel site.

http://vegburner.co.uk/suitability.htm

Check out this link for engine suitability information on injectors and combustion chamber shape on MB diesels.

Note that WVO may refer to anything someone pumps out of a dumpster. It may be contaminated with any unknown waste. If you put garbage in your fuel tank you will have problems. Use only known quality sources of veg oil.

So in reading the stuff on that site, its essentially saying that by design the MB idi diesels can deal with plant fuels as a blend for a looong time, meaning if I used it part of the year and sometimes switched back to diesel/did an italian tuneup on it, I'd be ok? I also have the bosch duraterm afterglow system in my car, which they say helps with the cold/thicker fuel combustion and how it runs at startup.

Does this mean I can continue to use a blend of 85/15 SamsSoyOil/RUG + maybe some cetane booster or power service without any damage to the engine? Thats what I got out of it. I'd only be running that mix 4-5 months of the year anyways.
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  #24  
Old 04-20-2006, 09:21 PM
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tell me this

tell me this.... could we mix a gallon of kerosene or perhaps a qt of kerosene
i am scared to put gas in the diesel but i know they sometimes use kerosene.
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  #25  
Old 04-20-2006, 09:35 PM
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besides RUG, throw in a pint of two cycle oil per tank. makes the engine nice and quiet on regular diesel or straight kerosene. Been using in my gas and diesels for two years now.
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  #26  
Old 04-20-2006, 09:42 PM
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so

so we could mix kerosene instead of rug...

and you think we should throw some 2cy oil in....

talk to me
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  #27  
Old 04-20-2006, 09:44 PM
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once

i once heard of a fellow who owned a jiffy lube and he
just used waist oil to run his 300 sd on.... what if we mixed
waist oil with vegi oil.... would that work...
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  #28  
Old 04-20-2006, 10:25 PM
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pmari - on my diesel/WVO issues....

Every batch I filter (usually 35 to 50 gallons), I pump a quart of it into a clear glass jar. After it sits a few days (outside at the same ambient temp as the batch), I look at it just to see if any “surprises” have settled or formed out of it. I do this with every batch prior to pumping any of it into my car. The first filtration is a T-Shirt that’s sole purpose is to catch the chunks of French fries and jalapeno poppers that are in it from the restaurant. From there it goes through a .5 micron filter sock them a 10 micron fuel filter. That all leaves it golden yellow and very translucent.
Translucence is the important thing. Cloudy is bad.
As far as the wax stuff goes, I’ve only seen it from a sample of diesel mixed WVO. I don’t remember where I heard about this reaction between diesel and veggie oil, but it could very well be from a post on this board. Went temps were getting cold around here (nights in the 30s), I decided to mix in 5 gallons of diesel to about 35 gallons of filtered WVO.
After sitting over night, I noticed a white/milky cloud forming in the lower 30% of the sample. A quick swirl would mix it right back in, but the translucence was not as good. The stuff seemed to burn fine. The problems came when temps got below freezing, and I had no way of swirling my car to keep it mixed. What would happen was the white milky cloud would actually form into chunks of a waxy solid. Not rock solid, but solid enough to clog my primary filter.
That batch got put aside in a drum to be put in the tractors when temps warmed up. What was still in the car was burned at the expense of about 5 pre-filters. The tank filter never seemed to have a problem with it. Back in February when temps stayed above freezing, I stirred up the drum, and it burned/ran just fine in the tractors. No sign of filter issues to date.
That was the last time I did the Diesel/WVO thing. I have not tried the kerosene thing, but have done the Jet-A mix. Did it the same as the diesel. It didn’t have the same effect on the WVO as the diesel did. Next winter, I may try some more Jet-A blends. As for the cost of it, there are two ways you can go. I happen to buy it 18,400 gallons at a time. We have 2ea. 10K gal tanks in the ground. Pumping 10 to 20 gallons out to “play with” is not an issue around here. Another source is getting to know the local aircraft maintenance facilities. When jet fuel is removed from an aircraft for maintenance purposes (need to enter a tank) it is stored in a large tank with all the other fuel removed from other aircraft. By law, do to contamination issues (mainly bio-growth), this fuel is not allowed to be put back into an aircraft. Get to know the folks, and you may get a line on some very cheap Jet-A.
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  #29  
Old 04-21-2006, 11:51 AM
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I like blending with diesel. It keeps things smooth and quiet. RUG seems a little "spicy" for my engine. It seems to make my engine knock like I was running regular dino diesel. That's not bad, I guess. I just like the extra smoothness factor.

IIRC, you need to know if your source for diesel is using paraffin based or kerosene based additions to the fuel to avoid the wax separation problem.

Last edited by 1983/300CD; 04-21-2006 at 11:58 AM.
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  #30  
Old 04-21-2006, 12:10 PM
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Cool...Thanks

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1983/300CD
IIRC, you need to know if your source for diesel is using paraffin based or kerosene based additions to the fuel to avoid the wax separation problem.
So now I know where it (the wax) came from. Thanks for the education.
I was thinking it was from the WVO, not the diesel.
Learn something new every day.
Thanks
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