Butchering 123's for WVO - Page 2 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

dougand3 · #16 07-13-2006, 11:45 AM

After reading that other thread, I say, "Whew! Glad I have a 126!". Would hate to have a 123 SWAT team bust down the door for an egregious violation like mounting another gauge on a holy dash.

RichC · #17 07-13-2006, 10:55 PM

Anyone know the differences in viscosity between diesel and vegetable oils ?

I burn used soy bean oil.

Soy bean oil seems pretty thin, when it is hot.

How much is the fuel heated by the time it gets to the end of the injector ?

Veloce300DT · #18 07-14-2006, 12:42 AM

Vince, I am not in any way disuaded from joining clubw123!, and Im quite glad to see you posting here on the shopforum, and I hope that there have been no bad feelings towards my initial interest in the club and then disappearance!

I have my membership kit all filled out and waiting ot be thrown in the mail. Loved the handbook by the way! I have switched my email server so I may not have recieved your emails. I have also been consumed for the past few months getting my business back up to spec after reloctaing in late January, and have been spending every minute I have away from it relaxing, or tinkering here and there with my cars...

Needless to say, Im still interested, and now that things are tapering off and leveling out I am finding that I am gaining more and more time every day to do things I enjoy. I'll be in touch with you!'

Boardmonger · #19 07-14-2006, 01:38 AM

I think they may be going too far. Any who owns a car can do whatever they want with it. It is their property. If they ruin it, thier fault. They can say "told you so" but what does that really accomplish. This is a free country and a group of purists shouldn't stop people from trying things out. While I won't hurt my cars it happens. In any case a dead engine is much easier to repair then a totaled car. This is one of those pointless debates where no one will win.

Cars die. Those that are collecting should be happy because the fewer there are the more valuable they will become. I hate to see a nice car ruinied but I also hate seeing people generalize a huge group of people. It is just more of the same ignorance. Damn sterotypeing a group, it brings so much silly conflict. Why can't we all coexist?

bgkast · #20 07-14-2006, 03:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RichC

Anyone know the differences in viscosity between diesel and vegetable oils ?

I burn used soy bean oil.

Soy bean oil seems pretty thin, when it is hot.

How much is the fuel heated by the time it gets to the end of the injector ?

Depends on the type of conversion. There is a viscosity vs temp graph at www.frybrid.com

TwitchKitty · #21 07-14-2006, 09:56 AM

Ya gotta look at the motivations involved. There is good and bad in everything.

Most of the suppliers of veg equipment are in it for the money and want to sell people a bunch of extra crap they don't need. Then they justify the sales with a bunch of psuedo science bad advice. There is a definite cult mentality involved.

Many of the buyers are either looking for something for free or want to buy cool. Much of this is ignorance chasing vanity. Most of them couldn't make a MB run on diesel, much less anything else. The fact that the same threads and same questions are posted repeatedly points out the lack of inititive in this crowd. Anyone who can't figure out the search function on an internet forum isn't cut out for fuel system work.

Running a car on veg oil is a happy story, fun to tell and fun to hear. I guess the good is that many more people hear about alternatives to the petroleum industry products as a result. The death of these cars will count for a whole lot more than the ones that were crushed so that polluting industries could buy their pollution rights.

Maroon 300D · #22 07-14-2006, 11:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TwitchKitty

...Running a car on veg oil is a happy story, fun to tell and fun to hear. I guess the good is that many more people hear about alternatives to the petroleum industry products as a result. The death of these cars will count for a whole lot more than the ones that were crushed so that polluting industries could buy their pollution rights.

Excellent point. Cars junked due to a bad veg oil setup are at least dying for a good cause.

vlayton · #23 07-14-2006, 05:52 PM

Hey guys, glad to be having a productive discussion with you.

For the record, there is no W123 swat team!

But I think my message is important to all diesel owners. Sure, my priamry gut reaction is from a purist reactionary angle, but I'm also pretty open minded and willing learn, observe and choose. If you consider someone extemely adament about all things good and bad for the car to be undesireable, that's your bag. Maybe you are closed minded. That's the nature of human opinions.

Someone on the other forum posted many links and references of university studies who are pro-biodiesel and alternative fuel who warn against essentially unmodified oil usage. Multiple, referenced sutdies throughout the last few deacades.

I think we're having a pretty good debate. Many good pooints are being made on both sides. I think this is a winning debate, if without a winner. I just represent a side. The pure and extreme side, perhaps, but just a side. Can't we learn from each other?

It's a litte NIMBY symptom. I'm not concerned with the early death of most cars. Just my favorite ones, no matter what the reason. Whether a slow death with straight veg oil, or a quick death from daft people who keep driving and driving after the oil gauge reads 0.

Twicthkitty has another good point abut motivations. Since I'm replying, I can't see who it was who has the Biodiesel: No war required sign on their signature. This indicates displeasure from the current state of energy economics and politics. Which is fine, but should that not be pursued in a way that won't screw us and our cars with, as mentioned, psuedo-sciences?

It seems a lot of us know how to approach alternative fuel pursuits sensibly, and can determine truth, reasonable compromise and the garbage. I heard the NPR story on love craft, and it rubs me wrong, nice to see others can recognize their value (or lack of it) to the "cause" It's why others will stick with safe, tolerable percentages of commmercial biodiesel, knowing their support of those industries will provide their growth and development. (I'd rather see this than artifical government tax subsidies, but that's another can of worms)

How about this argument:

I'm a VICTIM of my own life experiences. I was not content with the incompetance, rigged repairs and genral lack of concern and effort for these cars in my town well before veggie oil conversions became so popular. So like domestic and generic part usage, twine, duct tape, plumber's pipes, and a host of other wacky rigged fixes saw, veggie oil conversions were just another assualt on the originality of the car.

I find it interesting that my simple free expression is somehow considered an attempt to control ANYTHING. There are multiple comments to this effect. Let's be realistic folks. You cannot believe that or should want to even say it. That would be suggesting that you are mentally so susceptable to suggestion that the mere presence of my opinion is oppressive to you somehow. We're all too smart to buy that.

Nate, I can understand your situation, it took just as long for me to get them to you! I don't usually hear the stories of why interested folks haven't reconnected, but figure usually it's stuff life that. Club memberships are a back-burner issue of life, I realize that. I thought perhaps I found a piece of puzzle that explained a possible change of mind. I'm gad I wasn't correct. Take your time, I hope to be doing my part to aid W123 survivability for a longtime to come. MBCA is my primary forum, I was on it long before I had my own computer! I found all the others later, and have pretty muched joined them all. I regret I won't be one of the more active posters at this one, I have moderating resposiblities at the other and often cannot even find time to participate there. It's a lot slower, this one is a real dynamo! It's impressive, but way too much for me to keep up with, especially one top of all the other ones, and everything else!

Speaking of which I have to get back to work...check you guys out later.

Regards,

Old300D · #24 07-15-2006, 02:35 AM

Quote:

Since I'm replying, I can't see who it was who has the Biodiesel: No war required sign on their signature. This indicates displeasure from the current state of energy economics and politics. Which is fine, but should that not be pursued in a way that won't screw us and our cars with, as mentioned, psuedo-sciences?

That would be me. Whatever do you mean?

biopete · #25 07-15-2006, 03:40 AM

These cars are beautiful for so many reasons and thus appeal to all sorts of people. I see why someone may want to restore and preserve and protect a beautiful w123 specimen. However for me life is too short to worry about my kids getting mud on the back of my seat or someone dinging my door in a parking lot or spilling coffee in it. I have a car to haul the family places, have fun in , and hopefully go on some nice long trips. It does not get much better than a W123 or W126 for that. And running on biodiesel or WVO makes them that much better. One could say, if you are letting a beautiful, useful, environmental car like a w123 sit in the garage, you are wasting it

Also, I think the idea that most veggie oil burners are out for free rides is overblown. The lazy folks out for a free ride are discouraged pretty quickly.
It is a lot of messy work to run a car off veggie oil and I nor my wife and kids would call it free. Sure it pays 30.00 to 50.00 an hour in fuel savings once set up. And you have a good excuse to go on a long road trip. However, you have to work many hours and your initial investment. wont be paid back for a year or two. And the work can be messy. Think about it. What kind of people are going to suck grease from a dumpster at midnight? Dedicated, hardworking people passionate about what they are doing thats who. And do you think we would be so passionate if our cars did not slide down the highway so good on WVO? And further more, just because a car was not engineered to run off of vegetable oil, does not mean it should not have been.

TwitchKitty · #26 07-15-2006, 08:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by biopete

Also, I think the idea that most veggie oil burners are out for free rides is overblown. The lazy folks out for a free ride are discouraged pretty quickly.
It is a lot of messy work to run a car off veggie oil and I nor my wife and kids would call it free. Sure it pays 30.00 to 50.00 an hour in fuel savings once set up. And you have a good excuse to go on a long road trip. However, you have to work many hours and your initial investment. wont be paid back for a year or two. And the work can be messy. Think about it. What kind of people are going to suck grease from a dumpster at midnight? Dedicated, hardworking people passionate about what they are doing thats who. And do you think we would be so passionate if our cars did not slide down the highway so good on WVO? And further more, just because a car was not engineered to run off of vegetable oil, does not mean it should not have been.

I agree with this. It takes time for newbies to learn this by experience and in the mean while a car gets butchered. The fun, "cool" part gets done first. Of course this is not always the case. It is great for the used parts supply but this is a finite resource.

I see the same thing in other pursuits. Many "boaters" are more interested in bragging rights than boats and spend more time with the "bar flies" than with the boats. I say it is all fine as long as they are having fun.

Mucking around in used oil is not fun, don't kid yourselves.

Archer Daniel Midlands is advertising biodiesel on public tv. I see this as another huge step away from "free".

Hatterasguy · #27 07-15-2006, 06:43 PM

I think we are seeing two sides of the MB world clash hear. On one side you have the enthusiast who love these cars, couldn't care less about WVO and would still be driving them if fuel was $1 per gallon.

Then you have the WVO crowed who just wants a $1k POS to screw with, and butcher.

Of course their are many areas in the middle, like anything.

I come from the enthusiast side, I simply would never consider a WVO conversion. Firstly because I don't want to mess with oil, secondly I don't want to spend my time messing with said oil. Heck I'll probably buy a gas MB next I really couldn't care less about WVO honestly. But like anything its a hobby and some people like it, I respect that.

I have seen a few WVO cars, only one was done well. Most seem to be shot and have systems done on the cheap, back yard engineer type systems. They all seem to smell as well, frankly I don't find the odor that spilled oil causes pleasant. But if someone buys a $500 300D as a cheap throw away experiment car, and learns to love MB's because of it, well I guess their is a good side to this whole thing.

Still it hurts to see a W126/W123 trashed in the name of WVO.

miner · #28 07-16-2006, 01:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hatterasguy

I have seen a few WVO cars, only one was done well. Most seem to be shot and have systems done on the cheap, back yard engineer type systems.

I don't disagree with you. Iv'e seen those cars too. And I've also seen some diesel mercedes (some on this forum) that have been "converted", backyard-engineer-style, to water/methanol injection, or else hacked up to put in an intercooler, or modified to use a K&N filter with a homemade oil seperator. Some of these operations require more hacking than the average WVO conversion and none are exactly risk free when it comes to the life of the engine. All any of it gets you is a bit more horsepower too. But the responses to this kind of modding are mostly positive. Most poeple think it is cool. Hell, so do I. I might even do the air cooler thing myself.

Is it a shame when a good car is ruined by WVO? Of course. It's also a shame when a good car is ruined because somebody thought they could get better performance by tweaking the ALDA and bypassing the overboost protection, etc. and end up overdoing it.

Quote:

They all seem to smell as well, frankly I don't find the odor that spilled oil causes pleasant.

I've allways thought diesel somke smells bad. I think probably 95% of America thinks it's dirty and smells bad too. At least that's the impression I get when I see all the gasoline cars people drive. And I've never really seen anybody stop and take a big, deep, pleaseant breath of diesel smoke as a city bus passes by. But stinky diesel smoke is something most diesel benz people embrace. And after having my 300d for a little bit, I have to admit that I am getting used to the smell of diesel. Someday I might like it. And so I can see where greasers might come to enjoy the smell of WVO. My gandpa used to talk about how one man's ***** could be another man's shoeshine. That's all I am really trying to say too.

I mean, for some people speed/performance is the thing. And they do everything short of bolting on a jet engine to try to achieve it. Others want free fuel and/or a clear consience and are willing to wade around in vats of lard for it. And some guys would glue the original window sticker back on if that would bring their car closer to stock form. Debating which way is the right way is like arguing religion. It is pretty much pointless and will only serve to irritate all parties involved.

#29 07-16-2006, 01:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by miner

I mean, for some people speed/performance is the thing. And they do everything short of bolting on a jet engine to try to achieve it. Others want free fuel and/or a clear consience and are willing to wade around in vats of lard for it. And some guys would glue the original window sticker back on if that would bring their car closer to stock form. Debating which way is the right way is like arguing religion. It is pretty much pointless and will only serve to irritate all parties involved.

Well said.

bgkast · #30 07-16-2006, 02:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hatterasguy

But if someone buys a $500 300D as a cheap throw away experiment car, and learns to love MB's because of it, well I guess their is a good side to this whole thing.

Alternative fuels are the reason I got my 240, but now I am addicted to Mercedes. Too bad I missed the $500 part.

I was careful when designing my conversion and was able to avoid and cutting or drilling of the body. The whole conversion is totally reversible if I choose to remove it.