Butchering 123's for WVO - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

Palangi · #1 07-08-2006, 01:06 PM

Spirited discussion:

http://mbca.cartama.net/showthread.php?t=14035

andmoon · #2 07-10-2006, 09:52 AM

Had to respond to that one.

greasybenz · #3 07-10-2006, 11:29 AM

You said it andmoon!

Looks to me like a unfriendly forum. Although some of those guys are members of this forum as well. Im glad the non-greasers on this forum are nice to me

But hey if veggie isnt for you then fine, by all means run on diesel fuel. But dont call us evil because were not the ones leaving soot film all over the road from dirty diesel

Veloce300DT · #4 07-10-2006, 05:29 PM

I can relate to both sides of the argument.

2 years ago a family down the street from me decided to purchase an MB-Diesel solely for wvo purposes.

They ended up with an IMMACULATE 1984 300D Turbo with 68K original miles from its original old lady owner in Marin County, and over the course of a few months I observed them sucessfully reduce the car from collector/enthusiast quality to below avg. condition.

The day the car was brought home, it was fully detailed. The paint was smooth as glass, deep reflections, not a ding or scratch to be found. Rubber trim rich and velvety black, wheels sparkling, tires dressed. Clean carpets, grime free MB-tex. It beamed with a glow that could only eminate from a truly LOVED car and a dedicated owner.

A month later it was covered with a thin layer of dirt, the wheels were brake dust black, and had been dressed with a few blessings from the birds.

Over the next 3 months it got worse. I would walk by in the eve on my walk, and touch the paint as the car sat on the side of the street... rough as sand paper. Then I noticed the carpets were stained. The rear seat net frames had been broken away. And the blessings from the birds were still intact. The car had not even been washed no doubt.

Then one day I saw it drive by. The rear impact strip was hanging loose, and the brakes were grinding as they approached the stop sign. The windows had been cleaned, and the car had been lightly sprayed off... there was still a think layer of build up on the paint (it was originally WHITE) they didnt bother cleaning the wheels off. They were still black.

It couldnt have been more than a month later when I noticed that the car had been sitting in their driveway un-moved for a week or two. On my eve walk I stopped to chat while the owner was outside grabbing the newspaper. I asked him how he liked the car. Then the news came. "We're getting a newer diesel, looking at a TDI" why? I asked "The engine lost oil pressure, and seized". A grad-student of his ended up buying the car with plans of dropping a new engine in. Im sure it would have killed the original old lady owner to see her car slump into driveway junker status.

The way I see it, 2 things occured with this ownership. The buyer bought the car solely for wvo.. thats a FACT. Also because he had researched old MB diesels and felt that they were durable and good candidates for alternative fuel. After buying the car, it was definitely NOT cared for. Cosmetics went down the drain, brakes went down the drain, etc... CLEARLY this car was not bought because of enthusiasm for MB, or passion for that matter. It was bought because of an enthusiasm for alternative fuels. The car ended up suffering in the end, a product of deffered maintenance & neglect.The loss of oil pressure could have been caused by any unexpected, unknown problem or reason. But that aside, the owner was not interested in fixing the car at all.

HOWEVER, let me say that I know quite a few people whom own MB diesels, some in VERY nice shape... that CARE about the car, have ENTHUSIASM even PASSION for the car... as well as ALTERNATIVE FUELS.. and I must say, it is a beautiful thing... shiny, tuned, properly maintained MB diesels, expelling nothing more then french fry vapors from the tail pipe. Im ALL FOR IT!
And I know quite a few people whom have SAVED rough exampled from the junker so that they can be ressurected to run on wvo & biodiesel.. Thats GREAT too...

But when an alternative fuel enthusiast takes an extremely nice classic diesel, and rapes it of its beaming glow that can only shine from love and dedication for the car itself I can only feel disgusted. Angry at their neglect and ignorance for the car that enables them to carry out their wvo or biodiesel use and enthusiasm. Its like smoking, doing heroine, and being a vegetarian for health reasons.... you can eat all of the fruit, veggies, and soy that you want... but your body isnt going to last any longer or be of any aid in your longevity when its pumped full of toxins. You could keel over at any minute unless you take care of your body and ditch the addictions.

greasybenz · #5 07-10-2006, 05:56 PM

Ill agree with you on that Veloce300DT. What you described is basically the previous owner of my 300SD. The car was beat-up, interior was dirty, back seat wasnt put in correctly,etc. When i bought the car off of him for $800 it was worth $800. The engine to this day is fine and new injectors made it a whole lot better. But i did also see he had a 04 passat TDI and he told me he was a biodiesel enthusiest and worked for a biodiesel company.

So therefore the car was a mess. The engine bay was so dirty that i had to use engine degreaser to soften up the goop and pressure wash the hell out of it.
But now if you were to see the car you wouldnt have known it was ever in bad shape. I treated that car as if it was a baby. Even if i may have done my little fuel experiments in the end i got the heat exchangers and the 2-tank system up and running. The engine seemed tired but a change of injectors made all the difference in performance. I do have a passion for MB's, my dad can vouche for that. Ever since i was in 8th grade i always wanted a 300SD. Always loved the look of the W126's and so i bought one. Of course the 83 had its problems and well white isnt my favorite color and i wanted something a little more practical size wize. So i went with my sporty 87 300D which i love to death! and as soon as my uncle works out everything with his family it will be going to get painted.

I do agree many of the alternative fuel enthusiests and not MB enthusiests will care less about the cars condition. Just look up a guy by the name of "one tank fla" on the greasecar forum and youll know what im talking about. But hey i love my MB and do plan to take care of it and see how long it will last me before a rebuild or anything in-between.

Veloce300DT · #6 07-10-2006, 07:09 PM

greasybenz-

Did u go to Rich @ Fattywaggons for your conversion? His shop is a couple of blocks over and down the street from my house. Nice guy.

TheDon · #7 07-10-2006, 09:34 PM

i bought my car soley for biodiesel.. but slowly its formed into restoring it and not even letting biodiesel touch the filler neck.. im running D2 until i die or it does.. and taking better car than the last 2 owners and probably better than the original owners

diametricalbenz · #8 07-11-2006, 03:40 AM

People butcher the cars down here becuase they just don't know cars or diesels for that matter and proceed to run them into the ground.

People run em into the dirt becuase they just don't do their homework. The prices are so highly inflated here that the owners spend all their money on the car but then cheap out on repairs of the car and the conversion by cobbling something together or getting a cheap single tank with poor design which will crap out the IP in a few years.

RSCarey · #9 07-11-2006, 10:43 AM

I suppose the opposite is true as well. In my early doodles and schematics for my WVO system, I actually have a square drawn at the end of the process that says "CAR." I bought a beat-up Benz for $2K in November--just to test the fuel. The rest, they say is history... just ask my wife.

New motor mounts, harmonic balancer, brakes, engine swap, aux water pump done to the old girl already. AC compressor today, and hopefully paint before the summer is through.

I think these cars are infectious. I never turned a wrench in my life, but the Rattlemobile has me hooked. Nothing better than taking a cruise with my family to the beach, sunroof open, radio blaring.

One idiot's opinion...

RSCarey

miner · #10 07-12-2006, 01:02 AM

I would not have bought my 84 300D if it weren't for my intintion to run WVO (at some point). But I have allways admired the 123 ever since I saw my grandpa putter around in his late 70's pea green 240D and subsequently an early 80's dark brown 300D. He really loved those cars (he would never sell me one). And though he allways just used diesel, he loved to tell me and anybody else who would listen that they would run on vegitable oil or just about any other oil you could get. This was about 15 years ago.

I think the 123 is probably one of the only style mercedes I would ever want to drive. Most modern ones look oversized and clumsy I think. I do like the SL's from the 60's though. And I might buy an SD at some point, but only an early one without the plastic lower body cladding. I can't stand that. Anyway, I can understand that guy's attachment to 123's. But it seems to be more of an obsession for him. These cars are far from being collecter's items I would say. Otherwise how would I have ended up with one?

And it seems to me that tinkering with cars (chopping, lowering, lifting, hotrodding, and otherwise "souping up") is just what has allways been done. I mean, there are people out there modifying their Prius's, adding extra batteries and stuff to get very high MPG. Import tuners add tail fins and nitrous. Some of us add WVO systems. What is the big deal? That guy on the other forum is taking it way too personally (EDIT: He is also quickly becoming irrational).

Just my opinion though.

#11 07-12-2006, 01:35 AM

So he found one bad apple. There are lots of "conversions" that are done right.

For me, I'll stick to B20 from the pump.

vlayton · #12 07-13-2006, 06:05 AM

Hey folks.

Rueben invited me to read this thread. He was kind enough to register on the other forum and inquire about the discussion in a nice civil manner. So I thought I'd return the favor, and enlighten and clarify my case a bit over here. I know many of you are firm in your beliefs, and act upon your own view of preference and rationale, which I do respect. I'm much the same way, just not exactly on the same side as you may be in regards to this particular issue.

I have posted an extensive reply to his over there, I encourage you to read it for additional perspective. It's rather lengthy, too much to rewrite or repost over here.

There are several good points here, some of which are accomodated for in the other thread. I think some of you missed many of them, and just saw this as a cheap, unfounded attack. Others clearly can see at least the perspective and it's logic. While I don't hide my opinions about this, I hope they can be seen as having some rationale. It's not meant to call folks idiots and what-not, but a reasonable argument against callously hacking up perfectly decent vehicles that I'm on a life mision to preserve in all ways possible. If you're truly determined to do this and survive the difficulty and sticker shock of real quality upkeep of your car as well, my hat's off to you. I may be the epitomy of extreme in this case, I realize that. I do have an emotional stake and take it a little personal. W123s are my world. Passion provides for excellence. If your mission is to have the nicest and cleanest bio-burner, you can and will pursue that to the farthest end possible. While some of you may be managing both car and fuel alternatives optimumly, I think you'll have to admit there is a lot of half-baked hype going around that is capitalizing poorly on these ideals, and naive folks who look before they leap. Like lovecraft. They do a $700 job and the car cost triples! The idiologged package has become pretty pricey and less practical since after (as mentioned) overpaying to get this magic car that will save so much money; they are not prepared to pay or are concerned with paying the upkeep costs to keep the car nice. But once it's done and paid for, what continued economical support is there? Must you then pay a foutune for dealer repairs, or hire cheap ignorant hackers who may likely shorten the life of the car. I can't beleive they'll be there for you when you need that quality suspension installed properly, or diagnosis of specific things effeciently. Thus, you find yourself needing a competant shop that's reasonably priced, or take matters into your own hands, both of which may be more challenge than you signed up for. After you buy the converted car, I imagine you're likely pretty much on your own.

Rueben invited me to have look a look at his set-up in his car. I'm not so out there I won't hope to see quality in this realm. In this thread alone it has been illustrated there are no steadfast generalizations between greasefuel enthusiasts and conventional purists.

Some cars were destined to be classics. Others will never be. Most were not originally thought to be, but have evolved into them. W123 Coupes have been officially dubbed, "classic" I imagine the wagons are next, and eventually the sedans. I may be thinking ahead a bit here, but it seems to me W123 are destined to be classic one day, don't you think? In twenty-five more years, the classics of today will be even rarer and pricier. The electronic filled cars of the last 10 years will be far less worthy of restoration. These are just body and mechanics primarily. This will be far more attractive to someone who doesn't want to get a second mortgage to drive and fix up a great and worthy, currently vintage car. I can't imagine folks will want to restore these newer cars will all the typical mechanics and bodywork, and then fork out nearly the same money for all the possibly discontinued and elusive super-proprietary unrebuildable mirco circuit technology on top of all of that. Chevy Cavelier is disposable and valueless after a much shorter time than the W123 will be. They are currently building many many cars that well-cared for W123s will see going to the grave first.

Well anyways, there's a little rebuttal or "justificatrion."

I recognize Nate in here I think. I'm guessing after you found I wasn't hip to the non-conventional fuel thing is when you stopped returning my e-mails. That's kinda too bad, I liked your enthusiasm for the car.

OK I've typed enough for now,

Regards to all,

RichC · #13 07-13-2006, 06:42 AM

The first diesel engines were made to run on oils that a farmer could produce themselves, right ?

I think peanut oil was the biggest at the time ?

Old300D · #14 07-13-2006, 11:00 AM

Vlayton, Lovecraft is the bane of vegetable oil conversions everywhere. The king of incompetance. Giving the whole movement a bad bad name.

Old300D · #15 07-13-2006, 11:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RichC

The first diesel engines were made to run on oils that a farmer could produce themselves, right ?

I think peanut oil was the biggest at the time ?

But not the case with a modern diesel, designed to run a much less viscous fuel.