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  #46  
Old 01-02-2007, 11:51 AM
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maybe the peak-oil task force?

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Originally Posted by Shorebilly View Post
If you can send me an e-mail address for the person who proposed this......I'll send them a thank you from WV......

...

Those of you who will not support the bio-Diesel "unless it's cheaper"......just wait.....we will eventually have fuel shortages like in the early '70's......and I just wish that those who are supporters and users today will be allowed to jump ahead of you in bio-Diesel line when petro-Diesel is scarce.....and expensive......

...
I can't help on figuring out who proposed this. You can, however, read up on what PDX is doing sustainability-wise over at their task force's web page: http://www.portlandonline.com/osd/index.cfm?a=bcfiad&c=ecied Interstingly, PDX is one of the few cities that have been convinced to create a peak-oil task force. My guess is that this was proposed from that group, probably as a first step.

With any luck, the bioD producers around here haven't simply linked the cost of their product to the cost of dinoD and it can fluctuate independently. If so, the precipitous price increase I expect to see eventually will convince people to semi-temporarily switch. Based on your OPEC info, it sounds like that price increase has been scheduled to coincide with this summer's annual price hike. And with the Alaskan pipeline down, perhaps we'll actually see diesel cheaper than gas around this locality this summer not that that's saying anything good, though.

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  #47  
Old 01-03-2007, 08:18 AM
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Thumbs up Halleujah!!!!!!!

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Originally Posted by JWJ View Post
If buying petro diesel supports foreign organizations that want to kill us - aren't purchasers supporting that organization financially?
At least one other person here gets the point!!!!

Unfortunately, a lot of US citizens are infected with the Political Correctness disease......here is a possible future scenario.....USA switches to Bio-Fuel and ceases 90% of imports of petroleum.....Arabic Nations are dealing with famine, because they have no cash to purchase foodstuffs.....Liberal US citizens lobby for Food Aid to Arabic Nations......totally forgetting that when the Arabs (OPEC) had the USA by the short and curlies, they decided upon killing US citizens and purchased weapons rather than irrigation technology......Arabic nations hate the USA even more because we give then food.....Terrorism increases......

Aaaarrrrrggggghhhhh!!!!!

SB
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  #48  
Old 01-03-2007, 08:31 AM
Craig
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Guys, this is getting really silly. BD will sell to a wider market only if/when it is cost competitive with petro diesel, that's about 99% of the story. For that to happen BD must get significantly cheaper (due to higher volume production or subsidies) and/or petro diesel must get more expensive (due to supply and demand or taxes). Maybe 1% of the market will buy more expensive BD (for environmental or political reasons) but that's not enough to support wide distribution.

All this conspiracy theory stuff is entertaining, but it's all BS, this is nothing more than Economics 101.
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  #49  
Old 01-03-2007, 09:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Craig View Post
Guys, this is getting really silly. BD will sell to a wider market only if/when it is cost competitive with petro diesel, that's about 99% of the story. For that to happen BD must get significantly cheaper (due to higher volume production or subsidies) and/or petro diesel must get more expensive (due to supply and demand or taxes). Maybe 1% of the market will buy more expensive BD (for environmental or political reasons) but that's not enough to support wide distribution.

All this conspiracy theory stuff is entertaining, but it's all BS, this is nothing more than Economics 101.
Amen to that. Most people missed the entire point I was posing in my original post anyway. How biodiesel is a "politically correct" issue is beyond me, but it obviously has it's strong proponents and opponents.
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  #50  
Old 01-03-2007, 10:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Shorebilly View Post
here is a possible future scenario.....USA switches to Bio-Fuel and ceases 90% of imports of petroleum.....Arabic Nations are dealing with famine, because they have no cash to purchase foodstuffs.
Sorry, did you mean to say future fantasy? If you won't buy their oil, many others will so they have no shortage of customers. Now, if the rest of the world did that, maybe. You do realize that fuel isn't the only thing oil is good for, right? We are NOT 90% of their base. We only import 19% from the middle east.
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  #51  
Old 01-03-2007, 11:11 AM
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Originally Posted by aklim View Post
We only import 19% from the middle east.
What others we import from are attempting to kill US citizens on a daily basis? If 19% is what we import then its 19% too much or from the wrong organization.

Its a personal decision for me. I don't expect everyone else to change.

But as someone on this forum has stated before - Follow the money.

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  #52  
Old 01-03-2007, 11:17 AM
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Originally Posted by JWJ View Post
What others we import from are attempting to kill US citizens on a daily basis? If 19% is what we import then its 19% too much or from the wrong organization.

Its a personal decision for me. I don't expect everyone else to change.

But as someone on this forum has stated before - Follow the money.

"Be the change you want to see." - Ghandi
That is one thing. However, will it do anything in the long run? Yes, boycotting arab oil will give you a phyrric victory but will it do anything substantial? IOW, will it cause their economy to in any way be altered? If not, why bother with the exercise?

As to what ghandi said, does it mean that if you are being the change you want to see that you will see the change? If not, what is the point? If I save money, I can see my bank account grow. If I plant veggies, I have something to eat. Phyrric victories are great but meaningless.
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  #53  
Old 01-03-2007, 11:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JWJ View Post
What others we import from are attempting to kill US citizens on a daily basis? If 19% is what we import then its 19% too much or from the wrong organization.

Its a personal decision for me. I don't expect everyone else to change.

But as someone on this forum has stated before - Follow the money.

"Be the change you want to see." - Ghandi
Practically everything we use is petroleum based (paint, plastics, rubber, EVERYTHING). Don't forget that.
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  #54  
Old 01-03-2007, 11:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aklim View Post
We only import 19% from the middle east.
actually we import roughly 30% from middle eastern producers. but only about 15-19% of that is used for fuel.
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  #55  
Old 01-03-2007, 11:42 AM
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Originally Posted by retx View Post
actually we import roughly 30% from middle eastern producers. but only about 15-19% of that is used for fuel.
I was going off here: http://www.eia.doe.gov/neic/brochure/gas06/gasoline.htm
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  #56  
Old 01-03-2007, 11:46 AM
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thats strange that the doe would have such a basic, generic graph/page up. i see what you mean though. ill find the link for the US consumption/production when i find it again. i have hundreds of pages bookmarked.
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  #57  
Old 01-03-2007, 12:01 PM
Craig
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Quote:
Originally Posted by retx View Post
actually we import roughly 30% from middle eastern producers. but only about 15-19% of that is used for fuel.
You are talking about 30% of U.S. oil consumption, not 30% of what is produced in the mid-east. These are very different numbers.

As usual, americans need some global prospective. We are not the center of the universe. We are about 7% of the world population using about 20% of the world's energy, and we are being picked on by the big, bad mid-east? Please. How do you think this whining sounds to the rest of the world?

This is a global issue, and it's not going to be solved by the action by one country, let alone an individual. If the U.S. has a legitimate interest in resolving energy/environmental issues, they need to get out in front of real alternative energy production and start selling these technologies to the developing world before they also become "addicted" to oil. The U.S. got where they are today by innovation, not by hiding from the rest of the world. There is nothing wrong with BD, etc., but it is a very small piece of a much larger issue.
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  #58  
Old 01-03-2007, 12:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Craig View Post
If the U.S. has a legitimate interest in resolving energy/environmental issues, they need to get out in front of real alternative energy production and start selling these technologies to the developing world before they also become "addicted" to oil.
Bad idea. Why should I sell you the fishing rod and tackle? I'll sell you the fish.In any case, they already are addicted to oil so it is kinda late to stop the addiction except for maybe the undeveloped countries.
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  #59  
Old 01-03-2007, 01:17 PM
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http://blog.wired.com/cars/2007/01/texas_stays_bio.html

may be difficult to get bio in TX next year
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  #60  
Old 01-03-2007, 01:19 PM
Craig
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Bad idea. Why should I sell you the fishing rod and tackle? I'll sell you the fish.In any case, they already are addicted to oil so it is kinda late to stop the addiction except for maybe the undeveloped countries.
I think you are missing the larger point, we do not have energy resources to sell to the developing world, and we are certainly not in a position to produce cost competitive consumer goods, what we do have to sell is technology. We need to take advantage of the only "value added" product we have today. How long is it going to take the U.S. to figure out that they are no longer in the manufacturing business?

Take China as an example, 1.3 billion people with double digit economic growth. They are currently getting 70% of there electrical energy from coal, and a vast amount of the country does not even have electrical power available yet. Do you want them as a technology customer, or do you want them using enormous amounts of fossil fuels in 20 years? How do you think that is going to affect the world energy market? And India is right behind them.

Do you want them all competing to buy "your" oil in 20 years, or do you think we should be selling them state of the art energy technology?

Hint: A Westinghouse Nuclear consortium just signed a deal to sell China four 1000MW nuclear power plants, and China is planning to build 20 more units between now and 2020. The U.S. congress (late 2006) just approved the sale of commercial nuclear technology to India.

I think it's a little late to start selling them "fish."

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