Biodieseler threatened with felony charges! - Page 4 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

Dubyagee · #46 03-09-2007, 01:56 PM

Well, I saw this coming.

Soon it will be impossible to reclaim WVO without a permit and an expensive license to process it.

sophie2 · #47 03-09-2007, 02:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nerys

thats because thats not where it gets most of its E from.

Regenerative Braking is where it gets most of its E from. otherwise there would be little benefit to running a hybrid. :-) ie everytime they stop they recover some of that energy (a lot actually its really impressive) which reduces the demand when they GO again.

All the electrical energy still originates from the GASOLINE in a hybrid, unless you only go downhill or downwind. The regenerative braking is just an energy transfer process from the car's kinetic energy into the battery.

Taxing the electrical use of a hybrid still does not make sense, only gasoline provides the source of energy.

justinperkins · #48 03-09-2007, 02:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sophie2

All the electrical energy still originates from the GASOLINE in a hybrid, unless you only go downhill or downwind. The regenerative braking is just an energy transfer process from the car's kinetic energy into the battery.

Taxing the electrical use of a hybrid still does not make sense, only gasoline provides the source of energy.

There is such a thing as a plugin electric vehicle and also plugin hybrids.

GREASY_BEAST · #49 03-09-2007, 02:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aklim

Perhaps so but in which case would it look like you are trying to evade the tax? Lets say there is a mistake on my IRS forms. Accurately calculated, I owe $4000. Lets say I make what I claim to be an honest mistake and I paid $5000. Lets say in another scenario, I claim an honest mistake and pay $3000. Which is more likely to be suspect?

I'm not sure I understand the analogy... are you saying that it would seem suspect to burn a larger percentage of additive than diesel and pay tax on the diesel only?... As far as I am aware, there is no max. percentage of allowable additives you can put in your tank... so legally what is the problem? The laws are not ambiguous, that is the reason for having them...

Quote:

Yes, I know some feel that this tax isn't right, isn't fair, etc, etc. However, we are in a more civilized age and if that is the case, we should take it up thru proper channels.

I think here you are getting at the essence of the problem. What are the proper channels?

Quote:

Yes, you don't win all the time playing by the rules. Sorry, that is how things are. Don't like it? Leave this country and head to Utopia. I hear it is mild and very lovely all year round.

This type of reactionary, trollish comment has no value whatsoever in this discussion... Any idiot knows that a democracy is what its citizens make it.

Quote:

I speed, I should be willing to pay the fine and have my license removed. I killed somebody yesterday and I should expect the cops to come looking for me. It is that simple. If you are unsure if you can be brewing something like this where there is revenue concerned, consult an attorney. When I was having a feud with my neighbor, I consulted an attorney where I learnt that the easement between the road and sidewalk is public access and as long as I pick up poop, my dogs can be there. After which, my dogs were on the same spot killing his grass. What could he do about it? Very little. Could the attorney be wrong? Sure. Did that consult minimize my risk? You bet.

Why should I have to consult an attorney about this? All I am doing is burning some veg in my car... whats the big deal? Its not as if the road wear from all the veg and homebrew bio burners worldwide is even noticeable, and I would be willing to bet that it costs the government more to tax us than is gained in revenue by doing so... Furthermore, this hobby shared by a very few couldn't possibly be a threat to the existing bureaucratic infrastructure because there simply isn't enough feedstock, or public interest, to replace even a minute fraction of the petroleum distillates and their bio-counterparts (commercial ethanol and commercial biodiesel)... so why persecute this group of people at the $$$expense$$$ of everyone else???? I think you might want to take a closer look at the issue before making silly nationalist rants...

sophie2 · #50 03-09-2007, 02:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by justinperkins

There is such a thing as a plugin electric vehicle and also plugin hybrids.

Yes, my original post said "typical hybrid". For a plug-in hybrid, the source of the electricity is important to consider... was it from your solar panels (not taxed) or was it from the grid? Energy grid tax revenue probably does not support the roadway costs.....

justinperkins · #51 03-09-2007, 03:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sophie2

Yes, my original post said "typical hybrid". For a plug-in hybrid, the source of the electricity is important to consider... was it from your solar panels (not taxed) or was it from the grid? Energy grid tax revenue probably does not support the roadway costs.....

No it doesn't go to energy costs, I think that was your entire point.

I know there isn't many of 'em, but those little golf cart electric vehicle things are getting somewhat popular in certain communities. That is the perfect example of somebody using the road but not paying road taxes.

Sure you can argue that their impact is low, but that's not a fair argument in my opinion. You are either paying taxes for using the road or you're not.

sophie2 · #52 03-09-2007, 03:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by justinperkins

No it doesn't go to energy costs, I think that was your entire point.

Sure you can argue that their impact is low, but that's not a fair argument in my opinion. You are either paying taxes for using the road or you're not.

I totally agree that to be fair road use should be taxed on anyone who uses it. Ideally I think the tax should be based on useage and impact (i.e. miles driven x weight x vehicle footprint).

My point with the hybrids was that the guy was complaining that hybrids are not being taxed for their electrical use, which makes no sense because the electricity comes from the gasoline, which is taxed.

mikemover · #53 03-09-2007, 03:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 427L88

I always reckoned that the "marginal tax rate" is the tipping point where UNCLE finally goes too far, and shots are heard....

Tell you what, FREEDOM is why my dad came here from a commie armpit. There's more freedom back in that commie armpit ( actually too much - lawlessness) than here. More sad than ironic. I still put my 3.5 yrs in uniform in and love this place, but I DO have my marginal tax rate in mind. And a helluva arsenal. DONT TREAD ON ME.

I don't know you yet, but I like you already!

Mike

nerys · #54 03-09-2007, 05:10 PM

"My point with the hybrids was that the guy was complaining that hybrids are not being taxed for their electrical use, which makes no sense because the electricity comes from the gasoline, which is taxed."

Again it does not come from the gasoline - sure some of it does but most of it comes from regen. ALSO they ARE releasing models that are PLUG in and some people are modifying them to be plug in (warranty reasons are why they CLAIM USA models can not plug in yet the euro models can with the flip of a switch) I think it was peer pressure. Big Business does NOT want us to have an all electric car (a plug in hybrid CAN be an all electric car in fact WORSE since it would have none of the all electric limitations and all the benefits)

Thats why they aggressively destroyed the EV1 - its a big threat to the status quo.

Chris Taylor
http://www.nerys.com/

Old300D · #55 03-09-2007, 05:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nerys

"My point with the hybrids was that the guy was complaining that hybrids are not being taxed for their electrical use, which makes no sense because the electricity comes from the gasoline, which is taxed."

Again it does not come from the gasoline - sure some of it does but most of it comes from regen. ALSO they ARE releasing models that are PLUG in and some people are modifying them to be plug in (warranty reasons are why they CLAIM USA models can not plug in yet the euro models can with the flip of a switch) I think it was peer pressure. Big Business does NOT want us to have an all electric car (a plug in hybrid CAN be an all electric car in fact WORSE since it would have none of the all electric limitations and all the benefits)

Thats why they aggressively destroyed the EV1 - its a big threat to the status quo.

Chris Taylor
http://www.nerys.com/

Do you understand where the energy from the regen comes from? Forward motion of the car, and originally from the gasoline. A hybrid is merely more efficient with it's gasoline fuel. If you plug it in, that's a DIFFERENT story.

nerys · #56 03-09-2007, 05:35 PM

The forward motion is not relevant since BOTH vehicles hybrid and normal must expend the energy from the forward motion

also the FORWARD motion does not usually come from the IC it comes from the BATTERY pack which got its energy from the STOP :-)

Let me explain.

With a charged battery you accelerate under electric power alone (the IC is not even on at this moment) you accelerate to 25mph and then depress the brakes. (again at this point NO IC power has been used its still "OFF"

as you slow the regen takes this energy and puts it back into the battery pack which is THEN uses again to accelerate the car !!

its not perfect but the efficiency is scary high! very impressive.

now in the USA models that are NOT modified the speed cut off is either 25 or 35 (memory is sketchy on that figure) this is where the IC kicks in to KEEP the car moving and to accelerate any FASTER.

SO the person is making a VALID argument. much of the power is NOT coming from gasoline its coming from electricity regardless of the SOURCE of this electricity.

If they do not have to pay a tax on this E why does he have to pay a tax on the PORTION of veg oil over diesel he is using. The same applies to ANYTHING better than 20mpg (the USA average)

why do they not have to pay more for using LESS gas and by there logic "AVOIDING" taxes by using a more effecient car (regardless of how its more effecient)

without the regen and lacking a plug in method there would BE NO POINT to a hybrid. sure you would gain some by using excess power at highway to charge the battery but the gain would be too small to make a noticeable savings in fuel.

Chris Taylor
http://www.nerys.com/

justinperkins · #57 03-09-2007, 05:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nerys

The forward motion is not relevant since BOTH vehicles hybrid and normal must expend the energy from the forward motion

also the FORWARD motion does not usually come from the IC it comes from the BATTERY pack which got its energy from the STOP :-)

Let me explain.

With a charged battery you accelerate under electric power alone (the IC is not even on at this moment) you accelerate to 25mph and then depress the brakes. (again at this point NO IC power has been used its still "OFF"

as you slow the regen takes this energy and puts it back into the battery pack which is THEN uses again to accelerate the car !!

its not perfect but the efficiency is scary high! very impressive.

now in the USA models that are NOT modified the speed cut off is either 25 or 35 (memory is sketchy on that figure) this is where the IC kicks in to KEEP the car moving and to accelerate any FASTER.

SO the person is making a VALID argument. much of the power is NOT coming from gasoline its coming from electricity regardless of the SOURCE of this electricity.

If they do not have to pay a tax on this E why does he have to pay a tax on the PORTION of veg oil over diesel he is using. The same applies to ANYTHING better than 20mpg (the USA average)

why do they not have to pay more for using LESS gas and by there logic "AVOIDING" taxes by using a more effecient car (regardless of how its more effecient)

without the regen and lacking a plug in method there would BE NO POINT to a hybrid. sure you would gain some by using excess power at highway to charge the battery but the gain would be too small to make a noticeable savings in fuel.

Chris Taylor
http://www.nerys.com/

You guys are being way too pedantic about this stuff. The government does not care about those details. If you drive a vehicle that is fueled by government taxed fuel, then you are paying your road taxes. End of story. If you're not, then the man can crack his whip on your ass.

BAVBMW · #58 03-09-2007, 05:53 PM

See, the thing is, all these hybrids are built high in the Andes mountains, at a super secret factory with a long ramp leading directly to sea level. Once the cars are built, they send them out with uncharged batteries, down the ramp, the drivers of these newly made cars naturally apply the brakes to reduce the amazing speed they are developing, and then that there regenerative braking kicks in and charges up those brand new batteries.

See? It's all quite simple, the infernal combustion engine has nothing to do with it, they only install it so the the cars will weigh enough to build to a good speed on the ramp. That and stupid fat power hungry americans who expect to speed around like their favorite Nascar personalities. It's all big oils fault. All of it! Lousy big oil...

MV

MTUpower · #59 03-09-2007, 06:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LarryBible

Can we move this thread to Open Discussion please?

Didnt see this turn of the conversation coming now did he? MOVE THE THREAD is right.

aklim · #60 03-09-2007, 08:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GREASY_BEAST

I'm not sure I understand the analogy... are you saying that it would seem suspect to burn a larger percentage of additive than diesel and pay tax on the diesel only?... As far as I am aware, there is no max. percentage of allowable additives you can put in your tank... so legally what is the problem? The laws are not ambiguous, that is the reason for having them...

I think here you are getting at the essence of the problem. What are the proper channels?

This type of reactionary, trollish comment has no value whatsoever in this discussion... Any idiot knows that a democracy is what its citizens make it.

Why should I have to consult an attorney about this?

All I am doing is burning some veg in my car... whats the big deal? Its not as if the road wear from all the veg and homebrew bio burners worldwide is even noticeable, and I would be willing to bet that it costs the government more to tax us than is gained in revenue by doing so... Furthermore, this hobby shared by a very few couldn't possibly be a threat to the existing bureaucratic infrastructure because there simply isn't enough feedstock, or public interest, to replace even a minute fraction of the petroleum distillates and their bio-counterparts (commercial ethanol and commercial biodiesel)... so why persecute this group of people at the $$$expense$$$ of everyone else???? I think you might want to take a closer look at the issue before making silly nationalist rants...

I am saying that if you are trying to say that the Octane Booster or Cetane Booster you put in is an additive and not to avoid road tax, you sound a lot more credible than if you call you WVO or homebrew Biodiesel an additive.

I would think that electing the correct officials would be one way. Another might be to challenge it in court.

Sorry you don't like it straight up but I can't help that. Like I said, you win some, you lose some. What's trollish about that? It didn't agree with you?

Well, if you are doing something you are unsure of, it is best to get a legal opinion, I would think.

Does the word "principle" mean anything to you? Let me ask you this. If your son stole a dollar from a rich person, is that ok with you? The rich guy probably won't notice it and it would cost him more than it is worth to prosecute you, right?

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