Pros and cons of running biodiesel vs WVO - Page 2 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

Old300D · #16 03-09-2007, 10:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by firemediceric

This post is right on the money

Glycerin is not a factor in WVO because there is none there until it is formed by a chemical reaction. The glycol molecule that is present in WVO will not be a problem for the engine, IMHO.

People talk about using the glycerin by-product from BD for soap or candles, but do you want to use soap or candles that have methanol in them?

Look at my signature. I like what I'm doing, but living in Florida helps it work for me. By not doing a bunch of conversions to the vehicle I have less to go wrong. Read the Frybrid forum and you will always see people chasing air leaks or other component problems. I choose not to go the BD route because I don't want to deal with procuring and using the chemicals required, and I don't want to put a lot on $$$ into a processor. If my supply of WVO dries up tomorrow, I'm only stuck with a couple hundred dollars of filetering supplies.

Sorry. Blowby when burning WVO is a problem. WVO blowby gets into the crankcase oil and polymerizes quickly. WVO users I notice do not factor more frequent oil changes as well as the start/purge fuel into their additional costs.

spark3542 · #17 03-09-2007, 10:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by derherr65

The first person that says "do a search" dies.

From my all night reading, I'm trying to work up the pros and cons of homemade biodiesel vs wvo. Having not done either personally, I expect to miss some things. Please let me know what, and how it is important.

Category - Biodiesel / WVO

Collection - restaurants & chemical supply / restaurants
The WVO is gotten the same way for both, but biodiesel requires methanol(drag strip maybe?) and KOH from a chemical supplier... neither of which are free.
Processing - settle,filter,dewater,add chemicals,mix,separate / settle,filter,dewater
Making biodiesel is time consuming and involves hazzardous chemicals. You must do the same steps as running WVO then add on the conversion process and more separation. "It takes me less of my time to dewater and filter enough oil to run 3 cars and heat my house than it takes for me to produce enough biodiesel to run one car."(WD8CDH) Biodiesel also leaves you with glycerin to dispose of. Is glycerin good for anything?
Tanks - stock tank / 2 tanks
A second tank is needed for WVO and should be heated.
Fuel system - stock / complex
Biodiesel will eat a few lines and seals. For B100 new rubber or viton is a must. WVO will introduce solenoids, switches, and duplicate lines and filters increasing complexity and chance of breakage.
Operating - stock / monitor then switch
Biodiesel runs, for all practical purposes, just like diesel. WVO must be monitored until the proper temperature is reached then may be switched on. It must also be switched off before arrival. I personally rarely drive less than 30+ miles at a time, but short drives can severly limit WVO use.
If you screw up - Dead IP / Dead IP, carbon
Biodiesel can kill your IP by chemical reaction(pitting) while WVO can kill it by mechanical stress. Cold WVO can also cause carbon deposits in the combustion chamber.

It seems to me that WVO is cheaper per gallon, but has a higher install cost. This could be offset by the fact that biodiesel is more time consuming to produce. In the long run WVO should be the cheaper solution.

Well informed post. The third option that is missing is running a WVO/RUG blend, filtered, into an unmodified single tank diesel vehicle. That is by far the cheapest solution.

I have no desire to modify my vehicle. I would rather modify my fuel.

I make BD, but have ceased for the winter months because my garage is unheated. Manipulating WVO is very difficult in temps below about 40 and I'm not willing to move my BD equip into the basement

First hand information from my experience (NOT "what I've heard" type information):

BD: Time consuming...plan on at least 5 hours dedicated to production over the course of about 3 days for each batch (I make about 40-50 gal in a batch). About $750 to get started, and about $.90 per gal. Methanol is delivered to my house in 55 gal drums, and lye is ordered by mail order in 40lb increments.

WVO/RUG blend: About $75 to get started (filters, pumps, piping) and about $.40 per gal (Rug at 10% blend ($2.50 per gal) plus filters). Only takes maybe 1/2 hour to filter 15 gals and put it in your tank

Pick up time for getting the WVO becomes almost negligible once you get your restaurants trained to put the WVO in jugs and leave it outside for you.

8k miles on BD, then 4k on WVO/RUG blend, no leaks in fuel lines yet, plenty of fuel filter changes as I experimented with proper filter micron sizing.

dieseldan44 · #18 03-09-2007, 11:45 AM

Great thread, Im kicking this issue around myself. Im leaning two tank WVO because I cant do biodiesel in my basement. But, I would like to not mortally wound my car.

Old300D -

Quote:

Sorry. Blowby when burning WVO is a problem. WVO blowby gets into the crankcase oil and polymerizes quickly. WVO users I notice do not factor more frequent oil changes as well as the start/purge fuel into their additional costs.

Can you elaborate more on this?

I've always wondered what the real dangers are of running WVO, assuming that it is 100% dewatered and filtered by-the-book, delivered correctly at temperature in a two tank setup, and always properly purged and burned off at shutdown.

dd

probear · #19 03-09-2007, 12:20 PM

It depends on a number of things. My total average time in making 25 gals of Bio-D is roughly 30 minutes. I do not have to 'attend' the entire process BUT, then again, I work at home. a five minute break to go check the process and back to work. The processing is the only time that really requires monitoring. Now, considering that I have3 diesels (and working on getting a fourth) it is not advantageous for me to install 4 WVO systems. The other aspect to consider is that one of the diesels is a PowerStroke and I do not care to have to replace injectors at $150 a pop. I've been running Bio-D, usually near 100% and not had any problems, including leakage.
The other consideration is my location. I have a free standing detached garage for processing. Safety is always an issue. I personally, would not make Bio-D in a garage attached to a house.

This summer, I plan to try running a mix of WVO and Bio-D. The only thing that I intend on doing prior to this is installing a heated fuel filter. It is necessary to heat WVO to make sure that it's viscosity is low enough so as to not damage the injectors or pumps.

The other thing is that I am going to plan on having some storage for Bio-D to plan for next winter. All of my vehicles prefer Bio-D over #2

SunWizard · #20 03-09-2007, 12:31 PM

Another drawback to Biodiesel not mentioned yet is that in cold weather <32F at night you can't run B100, you need to run a max. of B20 or it will cloud up in your tank and plug your filter. Here in CO that means a lot of the year I would have to run B20. With a heated 2 tank rig, I can run 100% veg. all year, with about 5-10% diesel used at startup & shutdown. If all you do is short trips, the diesel% for startup would be higher. But it would still be less than 80% diesel used in B20.

Even if you live where it never freezes, and can run B100, it contains ~25% fossil fuel from the methanol. And the manufacture of the lye uses a lot of energy too.

justinperkins · #21 03-09-2007, 12:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by derherr65

I'm not sure I agree with the extra work and money. WVO is up front work and money to do the modification. Biodiesel is a little extra work and money for every gallon you make. That part will equal out at some point, I think.

I go to the pump and get my biodiesel. It involves ZERO work.

How can you say "I'm not sure I agree with the extra work and money" and then say "WVO is up front work and money"???

Running VO is up front work and money, and continuous work and money. Find VO, filter VO...that is work my friend.

justinperkins · #22 03-09-2007, 12:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SunWizard

Another drawback to Biodiesel not mentioned yet is that in cold weather <32F at night you can't run B100, you need to run a max. of B20 or it will cloud up in your tank and plug your filter. Here in CO that means a lot of the year I would have to run B20. With a heated 2 tank rig, I can run 100% veg. all year, with about 5-10% diesel used at startup & shutdown. If all you do is short trips, the diesel% for startup would be higher. But it would still be less than 80% diesel used in B20.

Even if you live where it never freezes, and can run B100, it contains ~25% fossil fuel from the methanol. And the manufacture of the lye uses a lot of energy too.

That has not been my experience. We don't get many cold days here, but it will dip into the high 20's and stay that way for a few days at times. B50-B80 has no problem in those temps. If you have trouble starting, you may have GP problems.

derherr65 · #23 03-09-2007, 12:37 PM

I would like to hear how the glycerin gets out of it's chemical bond to the WVO in a crankcase. Remember that process with methanol, KOH and heat to turn WVO into biodiesel? As far as I know a diesel running on WVO has the heat, but lacks the methanol and KOH to make the reaction.

But you are right, fuel contamination of the oil is an issue in any car with blow by. Diesel will dilute oil, WVO would thicken oil... and I don't have a clue what Bio would do to oil. Any thoughts?

I'd like to hear more about RUG+WVO mixes. Last I heard gasoline in a diesel was a no-no. I'm hearing, for the first time(for me), a couple of people saying 10% RUG + either 90% WVO or 20% diesel and 70% WVO.

derherr65 · #24 03-09-2007, 12:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by justinperkins

I go to the pump and get my biodiesel. It involves ZERO work.

I said homemade biodiesel, but that's my fault for forgetting to put it in the title and not making homemade a bit more prominent. I'll fix that. I know of no biodiesel pumps in this area, so that is not an option for me. If you ignore the homemade part then yes the whole argument changes. The argument would be Bio is easy and WVO is cheap then.

My goal is a fuel that is as safe for the car as diesel, as cheap as possible, and not too time consuming.

firemediceric · #25 03-09-2007, 01:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Old300D

Sorry. Blowby when burning WVO is a problem. WVO blowby gets into the crankcase oil and polymerizes quickly. WVO users I notice do not factor more frequent oil changes as well as the start/purge fuel into their additional costs.

I know the argument, but so far I have not had a problem with this. The one sample I submitted to Blackstone Labs from my truck came back good and there are others that I can point to on two other forums that have posted their oil analysis and their's was good also.

The other thing I do with each oil change is to put a sample of the used motor oil in the refridgerator overnight. According to Dana over on info-pop, if there is polymerization the oil will turn to the consistency of jelly. So far, this has never happened. I change the oil in the truck every 5K and in the MB every 4 months (odometer is not working)

derherr65, if you want more info on blending, try to get in touch with pmari on this forum or sushi blender on the info-pop forum. I think the two screen names belong to the same individual. He is very knowledgable and has been doing it for a while. While on info-pop, check out the Solvent Thinning section. http://biodiesel.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/cfrm/f/5451014871

dannym · #26 03-09-2007, 01:40 PM

I've been running blended WVO for almost a year now with no problems. Althought I have never taken apart my crankcase.
I think if it was causing problems I would know. Like reduced power, smoking, blowby, reduced compression, etc.. all of which are normal.

There a some things I would like to clarify.

VO is not WVO.

Blended WVO does not need to be heated. If fact heating blended WVO can cause problems.

Running WVO is different in different climates. So someone from Colorado telling someone in Florida that WVO will coke their engine doesn't know what he's talking about.
(That's just an example, it's not directed at anyone.)

I think the main thing that seems to be lacking is a little common sense.

derherr65 · #27 03-09-2007, 01:56 PM

Common sense ain't so common. Drive down any road anywhere for proof.

Old300D · #28 03-09-2007, 02:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SunWizard

Another drawback to Biodiesel not mentioned yet is that in cold weather <32F at night you can't run B100, you need to run a max. of B20 or it will cloud up in your tank and plug your filter. Here in CO that means a lot of the year I would have to run B20. With a heated 2 tank rig, I can run 100% veg. all year, with about 5-10% diesel used at startup & shutdown. If all you do is short trips, the diesel% for startup would be higher. But it would still be less than 80% diesel used in B20.

Even if you live where it never freezes, and can run B100, it contains ~25% fossil fuel from the methanol. And the manufacture of the lye uses a lot of energy too.

You don't have to run B20. You can run B50 from November to February if you don't feel like doing a tailored mix every tank.

Old300D · #29 03-09-2007, 02:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by firemediceric

I know the argument, but so far I have not had a problem with this. The one sample I submitted to Blackstone Labs from my truck came back good and there are others that I can point to on two other forums that have posted their oil analysis and their's was good also.

The other thing I do with each oil change is to put a sample of the used motor oil in the refridgerator overnight. According to Dana over on info-pop, if there is polymerization the oil will turn to the consistency of jelly. So far, this has never happened. I change the oil in the truck every 5K and in the MB every 4 months (odometer is not working)

derherr65, if you want more info on blending, try to get in touch with pmari on this forum or sushi blender on the info-pop forum. I think the two screen names belong to the same individual. He is very knowledgable and has been doing it for a while. While on info-pop, check out the Solvent Thinning section. http://biodiesel.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/cfrm/f/5451014871

I don't know what would show up in an oil analysis, especially if they only look for certain things. However, my oil changes running WVO were not encouraging -- the oil gets sticky. I suppose if I'd had it analyzed, the viscosity may be higher. At any rate, running a two tank system still burns too much diesel fuel, and a petro-blend is not heatable or good at low temperatures. Much simple to make cheap biodiesel (seriously, materials cost is still less than $0.60 a gallon) and blend it with pump diesel for 2 or 3 months out of the year to B50.

firemediceric · #30 03-09-2007, 02:22 PM

Old300D, I'm not looking to pick a fight, on the contrary, I applaud you for making the BD. I have no idea what kind of bulk you're buying your supplies in to make it for 60 cents per gallon. Everyone that I know figures the cost at over $1 a gallon, minimum.

I think BD, that is made correctly, is superior to a WVO blend in that it has more of a track record behind it with more mainstream R&D being done.

For me, BD was not the choice I wanted to make due to all that was involved. I may be taking a greater risk with my choice of a blend, but I'll take the gamble and continue to tally my saviings until I get bit in the end.