A price to pay for alternative fuels by BRUCE HENDERSON - Page 6 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

FlossHogg · #76 06-13-2007, 06:32 PM

Free World Order says damn the MAN!!! He can't do it better so he makes it worse for those who can.

First off, none of you brought up block grants. That is what pays for roads and it comes from the federal government (ie your income and sales taxes). There are 2 taxes collected on pump fuel, state and federal. We are getting a whole mess of toll roads, in my city, whose construction was paid for by tax dollars. (Note they were built in record time!) They will be operated by a private company but were paid for by TAX DOLLARS. Meanwhile, the city's infrastucture, local roads and free express ways are going to crap. I would like to know why anyone would think that gas taxes go to pay for road repair.

Second, you better believe this is Big Oil pandering, nay appeasement! They make more profits than any company every in the history of the world. That is a fact. Not only do they make the highest profit but they do not pay any taxes in this country or any other. In fact the government subsidizes them with BILLIONS of dollars a year. Which they do not put back into updating and maintaining equipment. Ever seen a black polar bear?

DAMN THE MAN!!! WE DON"T WANT TO EAT HIS CAKE!!!

cgunderm · #77 06-13-2007, 10:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FlossHogg

Free World Order says damn the MAN!!! He can't do it better so he makes it worse for those who can.

First off, none of you brought up block grants. That is what pays for roads and it comes from the federal government (ie your income and sales taxes). There are 2 taxes collected on pump fuel, state and federal. We are getting a whole mess of toll roads, in my city, whose construction was paid for by tax dollars. (Note they were built in record time!) They will be operated by a private company but were paid for by TAX DOLLARS. Meanwhile, the city's infrastucture, local roads and free express ways are going to crap. I would like to know why anyone would think that gas taxes go to pay for road repair.

Second, you better believe this is Big Oil pandering, nay appeasement! They make more profits than any company every in the history of the world. That is a fact. Not only do they make the highest profit but they do not pay any taxes in this country or any other. In fact the government subsidizes them with BILLIONS of dollars a year. Which they do not put back into updating and maintaining equipment. Ever seen a black polar bear?

DAMN THE MAN!!! WE DON"T WANT TO EAT HIS CAKE!!!

Right on! Right on!!!
I wonder what his cake is, though. Hardly anyone seems to be getting any of late unless they are part of the oil and war pundit bunch. The rest of us don't even get to say that we don't want to eat it because no one asks us to the table....

aklim · #78 06-13-2007, 11:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FlossHogg

They make more profits than any company every in the history of the world. That is a fact.

Please show the facts. How much did they make vs how much they spent making it and other things like that.

RNCarl · #79 06-13-2007, 11:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ForcedInduction

A few problems with that. 1: My 240D was not originally equipped with an EGR from the factory, nor was any W123 at the time, so I am not violating that. I have also passed my state's emissions and inspections twice in a row now. If they felt I was in violation, that would have been the perfect time to turn me in. 2: As hard as I try, I cannot find one word on BeCooling's website or instruction manual that states "off road use only". 3: My rant was about somebody not paying for road taxes, not about defeating emissions regulations. 4: The FSM does not say anything about turning up the fuel for more power but it DOES say what fuels are acceptable for use in the engine.

No, you are not legal. Yes you paid the road tax for the RUG you used, but let's see the restaurant's paperwork that shows this "additive" is EPA approved for road use. Every fuel additive on store shelves is road legal unless it states otherwise on the bottle. Even Power Services' white and gray bottle additives have to comply with the 15-ppm ULSD regulations. Unless your "additive" is approved for road use, it's an off-road use only additive.

Soapbox

So you changed the engine in the 123?? Help me understand. The engine you changed it to had/required the egr? SO, what you are saying is that you found and exploited a loop hole in the law?

I thought the Snow performance site said off road use only for water/meth. I can only see "illegal in some races". Is water/ meth a fuel additive? is it EPA approved to be introduced into the combustion chamber?

I understand your rant was about road taxes. It was also about strict adherence to the law. All I was trying to show was that we all bend the "laws" when it suits our uses.

The point is, the guy was NOT trying to circumvent the law. He was trying to make a political/ethical/moral statement. Something that this current administration chastises individuals for doing. - Now I'm not saying the "revenue boys" were doing anything insidious. They were just flexing their jurisdictional muscle to compensate for their lack of manhood.

Most laws like the one the guy broke are not made in the best interest of the public. Most of the time they are there to serve a lobby interest or to fuel some bureaucratic infrastructure.

Our liberties are being stripped away one at a time with each additional law. Just like boiling a bullfrog... can't throw one into a pot of boiling water he will just jump out. Put him in a pot of cool water and heat it to boiling slowly. Long before he realizes he is in danger of being cooked, he is lulled into complacency by the slowly heating water.
C.

aklim · #80 06-14-2007, 12:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RNCarl

I understand your rant was about road taxes. It was also about strict adherence to the law. All I was trying to show was that we all bend the "laws" when it suits our uses.

The point is, the guy was NOT trying to circumvent the law. He was trying to make a political/ethical/moral statement.

Something that this current administration chastises individuals for doing. -

Now I'm not saying the "revenue boys" were doing anything insidious. They were just flexing their jurisdictional muscle to compensate for their lack of manhood.

Most laws like the one the guy broke are not made in the best interest of the public. Most of the time they are there to serve a lobby interest or to fuel some bureaucratic infrastructure. Our liberties are being stripped away one at a time with each additional law.

Yes we do bend the laws when it suits us, don't we? However, does that give us the right to gripe when we get smacked for it? I think not. I don't hate the cop that writes me a ticket for speeding, assuming that is what I was doing. I might not like the ticket and might try evade the punishment if I can. However, should I be unable to evade it, I can't blame the law for punishing me for doing 35 in a 15. Now if they wrote me up for 55 in a 15 when I was doing 35, I might get miffed then.

As was said before, he should have checked the legalities BEFORE proceeding.

Well, in that case, after 08, it should be good, right? Didn't happen before 00 and won't happen after 08, right? I'll bet not.

So if I got ticketed by a camera, who is flexing what muscle? What is this? The blame game?

Want to keep your liberties? Stop asking the govt for anything. The more you ask, the more problems you get. My favorite example is of the kids asking the devil to do their bidding. Well, later on, they seem surprised that the devil has a bill for his/her/it's services.

#81 06-14-2007, 12:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RNCarl

I thought the Snow performance site said off road use only for water/meth. I can only see "illegal in some races". Is water/ meth a fuel additive? is it EPA approved to be introduced into the combustion chamber?

(This is the last thing I'm going to say about my W/M injection because I don't want to hijack this thread anymore.) I did not say Snow Performance, did I? I said I bought it from BeCooling and their site does not say anything to the fact of being legal or illegal for on-road use. Even further still, I have not used the water injection in some months now. I have even removed it entirely because it's results are not worth it's cost to maintain. (Here in a few minutes, I'll update my thread to state that fact.)

Yes, I found a loophole. AFAIK loopholes are legal until patched by new law or stricter standards. Using cooking oil instead of Diesel or biodiesel is bypassing the tax laws completely. No different than if he was filling up with home heating oil. Its pretty plain that if you use a fuel powered vehicle on public roads, you must pay road taxes.

Shorebilly · #82 06-14-2007, 05:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aklim

Want to keep your liberties? Stop asking the govt for anything. The more you ask, the more problems you get. My favorite example is of the kids asking the devil to do their bidding. Well, later on, they seem surprised that the devil has a bill for his/her/it's services.

So, I guess we are back to the "don't ask, don't tell" attitude that was discussed earlier in this thread.....

I may be wrong, but I thought we were supposed to fix problems, not sweep them under a rug and hide them.....

SB

Of course, fixing anything these days requires some co-operation.....and the screw you, unless it benefits me attitude, that is prevalent in the USA kinda makes any sort of co-operation between the proponents of the various policies and agendas impossible.....

For instance....last evening, on FOX News, Charles Krauthammer (sp?) was commenting that the food prices are going way up because Bio-Fuels are taking corn off of the market, thus increasing the cost of feedstock......Mr. Krauthammer, and the others on the panel, failed to mention the payments to Agribusiness for not growing corn.......your tax dollars at work.....and we should thank Senator Grassley for his diligent protection of those don't grow subsidies ......the average USA farmer does not get paid not to grow stuff.....only the multi million dollar farmers do.....just think about it.....someone getting paid NOT to plow, disc, rake, sow, weed, tend to, irrigate, harvest, and ship a crop.....sounds a lot like paying someone not to work.....I begin to wonder why we just don't pay illegals to stay home.....or even more irritating, the possibility of illegals getting paid not to come here and not work......LOL

SB

FlossHogg · #83 06-14-2007, 07:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aklim

Please show the facts. How much did they make vs how much they spent making it and other things like that.

You must be shrooming! Are you seriously going to let me believe you are that naive?

Anyway, the current adminstration's additude is - "If it ain't broke fix it till it is!"

Look at Iraq! The sad fact of the matter is independence (energy, thought, or otherwise) is being persecuted.

The EPA is trying to protect the environment huh? Take a look at who is running the show here folks.

Furthermore, I have a hard copy of a conglomerated report submitted by the Clinton Admin Era USDA, EPA, and DOE that proves biofuels are not only better for the environment but far more efficient to produce than fossil fuels. The report calculates everything involved with making ethanol or biodiesel (fertilizer, harvest, transportation, processing, and distribution) and proves that the entire process is 49% more efficient than messing with foriegn oil. It used to be on the EPA website. Wanna guess if it is still there?

The reason biofuels don't make it is because we don't have a multibillion dollar lobbying budget. Hell, most of us can barely afford to put fuel in our tanks after we put food on the table!

http://www.biodiesel.org/resources/pressreleases/gen/20070416_renewabledieselnrfinal.pdf

You know your rights...I hope!

VOTE RON PAUL '08!!!

spark3542 · #84 06-14-2007, 07:48 AM

[quote=ForcedInduction;1535737
Using cooking oil instead of Diesel or biodiesel is bypassing the tax laws completely. No different than if he was filling up with home heating oil. Its pretty plain that if you use a fuel powered vehicle on public roads, you must pay road taxes.[/quote]

Using cooking oil is exactly the opposite of using HHO. Diesel tax was set to incent people off fossil fuels, and it worked...I was incented off fossil fuels to find an alternative. Using HHO in your tank, however, is thwarting the law. It is saying "I still want to use fossil fuels, but don't want to pay my tax". That, I think most of us can agree, is tax evasion that we have no sympathy for, and pay the price if you're caught.

Using cooking oil is exactly what the tax was designed for.

Taxes are designed to make changes in society. Once the revenue stream from the taxes is witnessed, then greed kicks in and the spirit of the taxes gets turned upside down.

spark3542 · #85 06-14-2007, 07:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cgunderm

I don't agree. Whenever I hit the road, with the veggie mobiles, I tend to get nothing but thumbs up. When I stop at rest areas, or parking lots, I can't usually get away without at least someone asking me about this, and about how to do it. This is the way it grows. If you want to offer alternatives, you can't be so secretive about it that nobody every finds out.
The general public is only as greedy, close minded and lazy as the corporate media indoctrinate them to be (so that they consume their petroleum and petroleum by-products, such as ...well, just about everything, most of which comes from China). We need to generate a counter public, and you can't do that by hiding. One step at a time.

Not hiding...just spreading the word to those who want to listen. There's a huge difference.

..and yes, society is lazy. It is not something that was indoctrinated into them, they were born with it.

aklim · #86 06-14-2007, 08:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FlossHogg

You must be shrooming! Are you seriously going to let me believe you are that naive?

Last time I heard, they made 10% profit after you figure in what they spent to make it. IOW, I spent $100 to make $10 profit after all is said and done. What does your figure tell you?

aklim · #87 06-14-2007, 08:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spark3542

Taxes are designed to make changes in society. Once the revenue stream from the taxes is witnessed, then greed kicks in and the spirit of the taxes gets turned upside down.

Exactly. Taxes are basically slush fund feeders today. In WI, the good Gov Doyle raided the road tax fund to balance his budget or something or other. Social Security? Same thing. Said it before and will say it again. Giving money to the govt look after is like giving the pharmacy keys to a druggie. Both bad ideas. Soon as you get the govt involved in anything, they will gleefully try to figure out how they can screw it. That is why I believe that the less you ask the govt to make changes in society, the better off you are.

NC Benz · #88 06-14-2007, 09:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aklim

Last time I heard, they made 10% profit after you figure in what they spent to make it. IOW, I spent $100 to make $10 profit after all is said and done. What does your figure tell you?

You are right about the 10%. It stays at 10% when the prices of oil goes up (hence the increase in profits). The oil companies are not setting the prices, the market is. Blame the traders for freaking out every time someone has a hangnail. Also blame OPEC as they have more to do in setting the price as well. You can also look at China for their increase in demand.

Here is a great article on fuel prices: http://www.mercurynews.com/opinion/ci_6107666?nclick_check=1

mespe · #89 06-14-2007, 02:14 PM

Legal Disclaimer:I have no recollection of using WVO, SVO or any other non-taxed fuel in my vehicles for on-the-road-use, irregardless of any fictional, hypothetical, or theoretical posts, statements, or threads stating the contrary.
end disclaimer.

Now that I got that out of the way,,,

When a significant number of drivers start burning unconventional fuels the government will wake up.

Coal dust??? never heard that one before,,, I have however heard of burning wood to heat wood up to the point the wood emits a flamable gas, for use by farmers in tractors during WWII.

Rudolph Diesel did infact design the diesel to burn on peanut oil, remember JD Rockefeller hadn't started making gasoline yet (with the by-product known to us a diesel).

Why don't MB diesel engines state vegetable oil as a fuel sorce? Most likely the cars would then NOT be legal to drive in most developed countries, because there is no ASE standards for waste grease, because not everyone filters WVO sufficiently, and maybe because it doesn;t work in cold climates,,, afterall WVO solidifies and MB just couldn't keep up the roadside assistance program.

Bicycles do indeed use up road surface. The surface contact of a bicycle tire, with a 250 lb rider is approximately 6 square inches, or 50 lbs/square inch. A 3000 lb car with 8 inch wide wheels exerts roughly one half, or 24 lbs/square inch (don't think PSI applies here), plus add in all the bicycle lanes, paint for the lanes,,,, so yes bicycles should be road taxed.

The point I'm trying to make here is that NC ought to be ashamed of themselves for encouraging the use of alternative fuels then fining someone that is trying to do just that.

my 2½ ¢

#90 06-14-2007, 02:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mespe

The point I'm trying to make here is that NC ought to be ashamed of themselves for encouraging the use of alternative fuels then fining someone that is trying to do just that.

Who exactly (in government, at any level) do you see encouraging the use of alternative fuels in road vehicles?

The government is very consistent on this issue, they want you to buy commercially available road fuel at the corner station. Commercial fuel is taxed at the pump, and it is the basis of both the emissions and mileage standards that they use. Just because some folks think using alternative fuels is "the right thing to do," they should not expect the government to look the other way when they fail to pay road taxes.