*Warning* WVO question!
 

I am currently running a blend in a 87 124. It has worked fine for almost 10K miles. With the exception of several fuel filters! I have just purchased a 98 W210 TD. I want to do it right and not endanger the car. I am considering an Elsbett one tank, a two tank or a plantdrive one tank with more heat and hi pop injectors added. What do you WVO folks think would be the best route? I think Plantdrive would be the cheapest, two tank (Greasecar?) the most expensive (with professional install) and the Elsbett (self installed) somewhere in the middle. Advice is appreciated.

Cal, I bought a 95 mechanical type as I *thought* the alter digital/electroic ones would be tempermental... if I may do an add on to your post.....

Are there any issues using the "newer" electronic IP with wvo??

What part of your post does the *WARNING* refer to?

Two-tank, two-tank, two-tank. Golden Fuel Systems has successfully converted a '99 model, so you might want to check out their website. If you're gonna do it, do it right -- and one tank isn't it, even in warm climates. I feel like that's pretty well-documented good advice.

I hope to do a two-tank at some point with my '98 also -- just no time or money budgeted for the project yet. For now, it's running like a champ on B99.

Cheers, John

two tank
 

I have converted my F250 with the two tank plantdrive system and driven about 15k miles on WVO without problems. I'll probably use the Greasecar system for my 240D because they make a round tank that fits in the spare tire well. The plantdrive appears less expensive because the buyer purchases fuel line, hoses, 2nd tank, and wire at their local parts store. As for tanks, check Cabela's. The Moeller tanks are priced competitively.

The key to using WVO is filtering to 1 micron or less, no water in WVO, and heating the WVO to reduce its viscosity.

John

The warning was because some members don't like to see WVO related questions on the diesel board.

I am beginning to think that a plantdrive one tank with the hi pop pressure injectors may be the simplest route for me. I would add a vegtherm for more/quicker heat. What are your concerns with the one tank? Starts on cold veggie? I thought the higher pop pressure injectors were better at atomizing veggie and the initial start on cool/cold veggie was not as big a problem. If I went the two tank I would also need it installed. I can wrench the easy stuff but this is something I wouldn't want to screw up.:eek:

Thanks for the advice so far, keep it coming!

You need to do alot more research if you think you can run a one tank system in VA. How do you intend to start the car between October and March? The VO sitting in the fuel lines, filter and injector pump will not move. Either move down South or start research a two-tank approach.

Thats a good reminder, last winter I blended but I lived in SC. I suppose I could use a blend with a much smaller percentage of WVO... or as you suggest check out a two tank approach. Maybe a two tank is the way to go. I was hoping to avoid the extra tank and complexity. But it is probably best for the car as well. Thanks

Mine runs fine on commercially prepared B99 although it gets ~10% less mpg's and it costs more than D2. I personally wouldn't run SVO/WVO or homebrew bio in mine.

Not certain what your ECU and IFI would think of having different inj's installed. Have never seen a higher flow nozzle for a 606.

Mdisav runs the Elsbett system. He's the only one I know of on the forum doing so on a 606.962. I do not believe he has had any problems to date doing so.

If going with WVO, use the two tank system. More complex, but much better. WVO is just too viscous to run cold, even at just startup. The two tank system has proven to be reliable, and works good.
I personally like the injector line heaters that fattywagons.com have to offer. I had planned on running a blend of WVO and Bio-D, but instead opted to run just Bio-D. The line heaters (in my case) will allow me to run Bio-d in marginal cool weather without a startup problem. I also got the Davco heated filter. It uses both radiator water and 12 VDC for heat. Just another precaution. :D

I'd also say go with 2 tanks. Your machine is to expensive to repair when it starts to fail on the WVO coking and gummed up rings.

Plantdrive seems to think so too. http://biodiesel.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/159605551/m/2521056502

Agreed - Two Tank is the way to go
 

The install seems a bit overwhelming at first, but it can be broken down into small steps, with your car still driveable during the process. It took me weeks to do my Greasecar conversion, but I did it in three stages: First I tied in the coolant system, then the fuel system, then the electric. Since the system defaults to the diesel side when no power is applied, you can just keep driving on diesel until you get it all hooked up. The conversion didn't take that many man-hours, I just have a busy schedule with only small blocks of time to work on projects.

Two-tank!

A one tank "conversion" is nothing but abuse to an engine.

Thanks Forced, for the good advice. I don't know if you remember or not but you turned me away from the W140 and on to the W210. I guess I know in my heart the two tank is the way to go. I have a significant investment in the car, I should protect it as best I can. Burning WVO is going to help pay for it. It needs to last me at least 5 years. With the amount I drive it will have 275K on it then.

In talking with Greasecar they now make a kit for the W210, but they reccommend a professional install. I assume the kit will cost me @$1200, what will the install add, another thousand?

Don't assume anything. Ask Greasecar if they have any recommended or approved installers in your area or call around for installation quotes.

If you are going to keep it as a long term investment, you might as well do it right from the beginning so you don't have to worry about it later on.

The have a listed installer about 2hrs. from me. I suppose I need to call him. Can I join the OBK? I currently own three diesels:D

Just click on the bird, it will take you to the correct thread for joining. :)

But dont teach him the secret handshake until he pays his dues to all other members!

The optional due right now is the Grille badge. There is still time to order them for your car!
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y74...tel-Badges.jpg

OK, I've hijacked enough, back to the topic. :)

Just my own $.000002. I've been using a 2-tank GC system that I picked up on eBay this past winter. Gently used, but I saved about $500 off of the cost of a new one. Some very nice folks installed it for me for under $500. With all that I wasn't happy with the temperatures. Often under 100 degrees after 10-20 minutes of driving in cooler weather, not good.

I added one of Omar's heat exchangers and it has worked wonders, highly recommended and I think it was under $100. No interest in his business on my part, but I've used glow plug heaters and veg therms in my TDI Beetle, and I like the no-muss no-fuss of the FPHE and it just works and the heat comes up fast.

Be sure and get a good oil source that is as flour-free as possible. I made the mistake of getting a lot of oil from a nice falafel place and it sure clogged up my filtering setup. High-end bistros, chinese restaurants, seem to be good. Anyway, you've probably heard all that before!

Good luck and happy veggie-ing.

-Chuck

2 tank without question. Its not just fuel in lines. Its when cold VO squirts into cylinders, hits walls, seeps past cold rings, and mixes with engine oil. Needless to say, VO is not a good engine lubricant!

I used Frybrid system, which was expensive but if you priced the components 1 by 1, you'd pay about the same to peice it together.

Of special interest to me with Frybrid was :

1. nice tank with encapsulated heater (not a dropped in radiator) heats only oil its using, not whole tank - makes for quick switch overs.

2. bulletproof hydraforce valves (2 seperate 3 way, ensures no mixing veg oil back to D2 tank!)

3. very efficient and simple heated filter head - basically custom block mounted to VW oil cooler.

4. Nifty computer controller automatically switches over, so I can eat a burger, talk on cell phone, and not worry about forgetting. Surprised how useful this is.

Have 8k miles so far on my 87 300D, the engine could not be happier.

The cons - COST! $1700. Long (2 month) wait for kit. Off/On customer support.

Who on here has problems with good 2 tank WVO kit? Its borderline disgusting to continue reliance on OPEC when proven alternatives (ie, GOOD 2 TANK KITS, not single tank!) are out there.

Anyways, you can read up on my conversion here -

http://www.gruvenparts.com/Vegie%20Benz/veggie%20benz.htm


http://www.gruvenparts.com/Vegie%20B...DATE%20PIC.jpg

Is the computer a VO controller? If so, the price really isn't THAT bad. The VO Controller retails for $499. $1200 is only about $400 over the price of my DIY/piece meal 2-tank system.

How was the frybrid kit with the various hose connectors? I think I must of wasted a dozen hours going back and forth to McMaster for different fittings.

Frybrid kit was pretty good with connectors. Few things pissed me off -

All the fuel tstat, LP, IP, main filter housing barbs were 5/16 but the Frybrid valves are all 3/8 and all they supply you with is 3/8 hose. I got a few "just tighten hose clamps tighter" responses before I went and got proper 5/16 hosing. Only problem with that, ofcourse, is stretching 5/16 hose over their 3/8 hydraforce valves. What they *should* of done is supply 3/8-5/16 adapters for valves. They acted put out by that suggestion, said its different for every vehicle how can they design for every vehicle? Easy, supply little adapters...

Other than that, all fittings were decent. I hate NPT threads and had some issues with coolant leaks on their terminating fittings at 1st but all thats fine now. Would have like to see standard threads, custom terminating fittings but that would drive cost up.

The VO controller is simple circuit board but Im sure they had to have it made specially. Cant see paying $500 for one of those but whatver. It works and works well!

Only problem I seem to have at moment is loosing prime on Dino - engine stalls on switch back when its really hot. Sure its an air leak on the D2 side (prob due to stretch hose!).

8k miles and counting.

Two tank - two tank - two tank

In orderof my preference using my non-scientific research:

1. Frybrid - with cavets listed above in a2t's posts.

1. Vegistroke - if you own a Ford PSD.




2. & 3. maybe interchangeable:
Plant Drive - two tank
Grease car with plate heater.

4. Fossil Free Fuel ONLY because I haven't seen pictures of their system.









5. Golden Fuels BECAUSE I have seen pictures of his system AND because of a narrative given in the eBay listing when he was trying to sell his Jeep
Liberty CRD.

There are some other knock off systems that I wouldn't bother with.

Can you elaborate or post a link, please? I've been impressed with the GFS folks I have met, so I'd like to know more.

Cheers, John

Aww, come on. That should be easy enough to troubleshoot. How many D2 connections did you need to make? 3? 4? I had a TINY air issue on the VO side that I finally got around to troubleshooting the other day. It would only happen when the VO tank (OEM tank on my car) was lower than half full.

Use a clear inline filter and put it in front of your first D2 connection and then move it forward toward the IP as you confirm that the air is not coming in prior to that point. You'll have it narrowed down in 30 mins tops!

I haven't seen their ENTIRE kit yet either, but I can't say enough good things about these guys and their commitment to VO conversions. I saw a TDI that they converted last summer. It is hands down the cleanest and most tech-advanced install I have ever seen. Bar none. I met Dave about a year ago and he spent no less than 30 mins with me while I barraged him with questions about my plans for my install. His input really helped me alot.

3/8" is the right size hose for those hose barbs. You cut the clear hard hoses off before the barb leaving a stub of the old hose still on the barb. The 3/8" hose fits neatly over the stub.

Ha, the greasecar approach! Personally, this seems really sketchy to me, but there are alot of installations done this way. Greasecar suggests you leave alot more than a "stub" of hose. In fact, they suggest you insert the entire length of the hose inside the larger hose. There's a thread on their first page of their forums about this.

FFF looks kind of pricey, $3K +install for a two tank? I can't swing that. Its 30% of what I paid for the car:eek: More than I paid for my 124:eek: I think it would take a long time to pay for itself. Maybe if I moved it car to car...:rolleyes:

A very common problem with not leaving a stub is damaging the barb while removing the hard tubing and creating a permanent slow leak.

Not on my 87 300D it didnt. The OD of the clear hose is about .220". So, what you get is a 3/8 inner diameter hose going over a .220" outer diameter hose. We dont even need math to know that aint gonna work, esp pulling 14 in Hg.

Maybe my 87 300D is not the "norm". But there are no clear hoses associated with the whole dino thermostat housing. Those are all 5/16. And I just repl that from dealer, 5/16. 3/8 must be for 123 or something.

I know, I know. But the problem only recently surfaced, and only when engine coolant is around 100C. And if Im careful about feathering throttle once I push the purge button, I can keep it from stall. Once diesel prime is restored it runs fine.

The wife is about to pop out another kid (due today!) so it might be a while before I can tackle it. And we're not rolling the old benz to hospital...I'd never hear end of it from her family...

The eBay auction is long over, but the owner of GFS listed his Libby CRD, and stated it was on it's SECOND engine because he failed to change his engine oil at 3000 miles, and the first engine lost lubrication due to lube oil polymerization. That speaks volumes about the quality of the kit -- basically it doesn't heat the oil, and it gets washed past the rings without burning.

Personally I think it's stupid to run a modern common-rail engine on WVO, but if you are going to do it, do it knowing the consequences.

Only if you convert it and/or process oil incorrectly. The latter is just as true for BioD. Plenty of ppl running 100's of thousands of miles on WVO without issue. Follow simple rules and there wont be any problems. Whats stupid is continuing to fund the corrupt oil industry when viable domestic alternatives exist.

It's not a viable alternative. Do you have any idea of how much oil we actually use?

As of 2000, the United States was producing in excess of 2.9 billion gallons of waste vegetable oil annually, mainly from industrial deep fryers in potato processing plants, snack food factories and fast food restaurants. If all those 2.9 billion gallons could be collected and used to replace the energetically equivalent amount of petroleum, almost 1% of US oil consumption could be offset.

Oil consumption in passenger cars, commercial trucks, of what "universe" of consumption are we measuring to say 1 percent?

Also note that just because it couldn't be universalized for everyone doesn't mean it isn't a viable alternative for some. We're kinda at the point right now where we don't need a singular solution, but probably WVO could be one of many possible alternatives, do ya' think?

-Chuck

I'm just trying to avoid the problems
 

of having a second tank and all the associated plumbing and valves. I constantly read here about fuel and air leaks, valves sticking, lift pump problems, switchover delays etc. What I am hoping I can use is a single tank, that won't damage my engine on startup.

To stay on subject,

A few air leak problems don't begin to compare with IP or engine failure by running cold wvo in a cold engine.

Forced Induction has said many times, these engines were designed to run on #2 Dino diesel. All of the internal specs of the IP, injectors, engine internals... etc are designed to use that specific fuel with it's corresponding viscosity - lubricity and thermal characteristics.

That said, one has two choices, either convert the oil to be more like #2 by converting it into biodiesel OR changing the oil's characteristics by heating it to lower it's viscosity and bring the engine up to operating temp prior to injecting it.

It isn't magic. It's mechanics and physics. If your car is disposable to you then you MAY get several thousand miles on unheated wvo/one tank system. Or depending the condition of your IP and engine internals....... you may get to go car shopping sooner than you think.

That being said, I am more emotional about it than most. To me it IS about NOT contributing to big oil any longer than I have to. The hospital where I worked on 9/11 sent a disaster team to x-ray bits and pieces to determine identities. Two of my nephews are fighting in Iraq.

If I don't become the change I seek for our future, how can I expect others to change first!

C.

Or blend with minimal mods and accept the gamble.

Where did you pull universalized out of that?

1% is an insignificant amount of fuel. If you want a truly viable alternative fuel, you need to look for 5%+ before the masses will start to take it seriously. Until then, it will only occupy the time of the fringe enthusiasts.

When developers start working with algae based crops, it will begin to open up the availability to the masses.

HAAA!!!

Whay couldn't I have said that! :eek: Yeah, what he said! LOL

C.

That's the kind of mentality that keeps Lovecraft in business and classic cars in the junkyard.

Yeah, I would add my voice to the "two tank is better" chorus. I kinda doubt that one tanking it would be less fuss in the short run. When I've blended, it has ended up cleaning out all kinds of crap from ye olde phyule system. You'll have to change filters and in doing so it isn't too hard to introduce an air leak anyway.

Yes, I can read wikipedia as well. But remember, you (I should say they) are talking about Waste Veg Oil, disposed from restauarants and such. What about the millions of acres of idle farm land in the US alone we PAY farmers not to grow on ? As someone already mentioned, WVO, Bio D, ethanol, electric, hybrid electric, ARE all part of a 100% solution (that DONT involve the middle east, or your buddy Chavez ;) ) And btw, 1% of 20 million barrels per day is whole lot of offset! Call Exxon Mobil and tell them we need 1% less oil, see what they say...

Again, buy a decent kit. Or make your own but dont skimp on the components. For example, these plastic 6 port Pollac valves are not reliable. Get GOOD components, you wont have problems. You will need to tinker with it from time to time (you didnt think it'd be THAT easy to screw OPEC did you?). But this isnt rocket science. Its very well proven, as long as you follow the rules.

I thought the Elsbett kit was a quality kit?

The two-tank kit probably is.

I like the way you think...
 

http://www.rustyblevins.com/ImpeachGWB.jpg

I like the way you think....... but then what would we do when Cheney takes over? Or would that just be a formality?

I, too, say go two-tank to avoid future problems - with Greasecar being perhaps he most cost-effective system available. Single tank systems are just asking for trouble. I, too, agree that these motors were not designed to run a fuel as thick as VO and with significantly different combustion characteristics (unless adequately heated or converted to BioD.)

As far as WVO being a viable alternative - I don't really think it is for most folks. I just know that I saved between $5,000 and $6,000 last year in fuel costs. The environmental benefit is an added bonus, and we've made some good friends in our greasy pursuits.

We've also made $ investing in grease collection/rendering companies like Darling - now that we've learned about their greasy scheme - they get paid to pick up the grease, then they sell it on the open market to the highest bidder! It's a double cash-in for them (and us as stockholders, too!)