"Factory" biodiesel an environmental con job?
 

I've seen a number of articles in publications such as New Scientist and on the BBC web site discussing the fact that the processing of newly grown agricultural products into biodiesel and ethanol is actually worse for the environment that using dino diesel.

Now this report from the OECD no less discussing the same thing.

http://www.reportonbusiness.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20070914.wibreguly14/BNStory/robColumnsBlogs/home

This does not criticize the conversion of waste products such as food or wood waste into bio fuels, as the Germans do, or WVO use, but it certainly criticizes the trend to grow corn and canola for fuel production.

If this is all true then I may as well stick with the cheaper dino diesel :)

I think anytime you start playing around with a food/animal feed source there are some serious concerns and unforeseen consequences. Not only is corn being diverted for ethanol production, but fields that would have otherwise been planted with something else are being used for corn/ethanol production as well.

also, corn is a VERY heavy eater, the plant will completely deplete the soil of nutrients in 2 years. Rotation is needed with cover crops and mulching needed to keep the soil healthy. (anybody ever hear of the dust bowl?) IF corn production goes full swing, to producing fuel, several steps may be left out of the average farmer's routine resulting in soil conservation efforts being needed.

Just to point out that the article cites ethanol, specifically corn-based ethanol production, as a "con job".

Nowhere does it mention biodiesel, or other biofuels.

Corn based ethanol is a con job as it takes more energy to make the ethanol than you get back out of it. Sugarcane based ethanol like the Brazilians use gives more energy back than it takes to make so it is a good way to go. We should all be driving our gassers on RUM and our Diesels on rapeseed based bioD, which I believe gives the highest oil yields (better than soy, etc)

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My bioD is a byproduct of glycol production :)

The main criticism is with ethanol. It takes a large amount of heat to distill it to a pure enough form to use as fuel. In other words it takes about 3 gallons of ethanol to make four gallons. Biodiesel is different, it takes about one gallon of biodiesel to produce 10 gallons. Although alternative heat sources (solar, geothermal,nuclear) could be used to distill it that energy could be used for other things.

Another problem with biofuels is acrolein emissions. Acrolein emissions are notably higher when using biofuels in engines when compared to petroleum based fuels. Acrolein is also a by product of distillation although it can be controlled in a production process. In short, we will not all be able to use biofuels due to the increase in acrolien emissions, however that doesn't mean that some of us can't.

That's the way to go... getting two products from one process.

Are you making antifreeze?

How much BioD do you get from the process? In other words, is it in commercial quantities?

I think corn based ethanol is bad. Still, I look at it and other bio fuels as stepping stones or intern steps. For ethanol, I would say cellulose production or other waste stock. Possibly waste from biodiesel production.
For biodiesel, I hear rapeseed (canola oil) is a bit better than soy oil. Still, I think if you mechanically press out the oil is soy bean, you can still use the mash for feed. It give less yield than chemical processes. I think if alge porduction will work, than there's at least a partial answer.
As far a Brazilian sugar cane or Jathropa from Indonesia, I question what the enviromental impact is from rain forest devistation.
Tom

The price of fertilizer has jumped 10% in the past 2 months alone (thanks to the increased use of Nitrogen for corn production).

Some insightful replies here.

I think the key messages are that

(1) intensive farming uses high (and often hidden) energy inputs and if not done very carefully, runs the risk of soil degredation and pollution run-off

and

(2) the source of biofuels needs to be looked at critically. Some are a net improvement in terms of resource use compared to fossil fuels and some are definitely much worse in overall impact on our planet!

Now I have to debug my cruise control as the AC and heat are fixed! Cheers all....

Its all politics.....the government has always subsidized corn production and assisted in finding new uses for it including the big push 35-40 years ago to us corn syrup fructous as a sweetner in everything including cranberry juice.
You can thank them partially for the obesity and diabetes in this country!

Corn is not the answer for a biofuel.....as some have already said.. the yield is too low! 10% at best for biodiesel production. Sugarcane in SouthAmerica
has a 200 to 300% yield for biofuels....but that is a different climate and growing environment that lends itself to crops like sugarcane.

We need to pursue the development of new crops and hybrid plants that are compatible with our climates and soil types in the US that have a high yield potential for biofuels. Corn is only good for Cow feed and summer picnics!
And I think soy beans should be only looked at as a transitional source.....the "Soy Bean Lobbyists" won't like to hear that either!

Sorry for the rant!

at least soybean improves the soil rather than depleting it. the legume status of the plant draws nitrogen from the air and leaves more than it takes! no idea if the plant is as good or better or worse than corn or any other type of plant at making fuel.

vstech...good point! It could be incorporated into the crop rotation in certain parts of the country to restore/fix nitrogen in the soil that would be depleted by the higher yield "fuel crop" grown in the previous season. Peanuts (another legume) could be used the same way. The added benefit is that the soy bean or peanut crops used to restore the soil could also be used for biofuel production but it would be at a lower yield than the main fuel crop.

those are some pretty grand assertions. Anyone have links (that's an objective source), sources for their information?

I'm certainly no fan of corn based ethanol, but not of misinformation either..there's A LOT of it out there.

The place where I purchase fuel from in the bay area only uses biodiesel made Waste Vegetable Oil
http://biofueloasis.com/

Also you might want to check out this video: http://www.mofilms.org/
As 300sdToronto said there should be a lot of focus put into where you are getting your fuel from. For example, clear cutting rainforest to grow palm to produce palm oil to make biodiesel is not in my opinion a good way to save the environment.

Done a ton of reading on this in preparation to do some investing in some emerging companies in biofuel technologies......but have held off because the raw materials/crops are the weak link in the US.
In your country....France, I am sure there is a lot of reference material on reseach done since WWII on crop yields and biofuels. Germany mobilized their entire military using mostly biofuels!

There was some serious research in this country that sprung from the Oil Embargo of the early 70's. That same information has not changed much but is still pertinent to todays tech advances. You can dig up some info. from the USDA and the National Renewable Energy Lab (NREL).


One real good reference on crop oil yields can be found at journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_yield.html
Out of about 20 different oil producing crops Corn has the lowest yield per Acre and Soy Bean is about a quarter of the way down the list towards higher yield crops. Oil Palm is the highest yield.....but Rapeseed is probably the most capatable with the temperate zones of North America and Europe. Just think what could be done with a little genetic engineering!!

The discussion/decision about what should be the source vegetation for biodiesel in the US repeats a familiar theme. The Europeans- lead by Germany decided long ago that for their climate and infrastructure Rapeseed (Canola) oil is the best from a cost benefit perspective. When the US got it's collective feet held to the fire on the same subject, the lawmakers in their infinite stupidity, decided that WE could do better!:P
Nevermind that the Germans have been doing some pretty good engineering over the years (they DO build Mercedes after all). They are also darn fine chemical engineers. If they have figured out that Rapeseed oil is the way to go we had better have some pretty good evidence to NOT go that route. All the information to date points out that we DON'T HAVE that evidence!
Not to say that soy (Soy Methyl Ester - SME - Soyate) can't work or that biodiesel made from WVO isn't a good thing; on a large scale its just not the best thing "energywise".
The flap over ethanol for fuel in the US is a classic study in lobbyists/subsidies ending up with exactly the Wrong conclusion. Large subsidies which ADM and other monopolistic conglomerates lobbied for and got, high import duties against Brazilian ethanol, mandated ethanol use before the energy balance results are in. Large fundamental changes in the way our food agriculture system works without sufficient consideration of the consequences. We'll be paying for this bad goverment for a LONG time!:mad:

I smell biodiesel everywhere here. That said I smell it in Arlington VA too behind the city minibuses.

The DOE/NREL published a report which I cannot find any more showing that ethanol (again, not a fan, like butanol idea more) was a profitable product even from corn and did not take more energy to produce that it made. In fact in the pilot plant study they were putting a significant amount of electricity back on to the grid.

If you look at co-gen scenarios they work out the best since one of the larger energy costs in processing is heating the feedstocks, fermenters, distillation columns etc, whatever the fuel. In co-gen the heat is extremely cheap since it's just waste from the electricity generator next door.

I spoke to a partner in a 2 million gallon bioD processing facility who said he certainly wouldn't pick one technology over the other in this market (he's also a ChemEngineer). Too much change, too many new things. It's risky at the moment as the tech. can be obsolete tomorrow. In any case, I don't there's anything that can be done at room temperature regardless of tech, so my eye at the very least would be the smart ones teaming up with generators.

Our biodiesel is made right here in our town, with oil sourced from the byproduct of Purdue Farm's quest for chicken feed from crushed soy beans 15 miles west of here. About as sustainable as you can get these days.

When our biodiesel comes from the oil of the algae grown here in passive solar ponds and fed by our town's waste water treatment plant and local ag waste I'll be much happier.

We'll get there one day, the lack of options will be driving us to make common sense choices.

Pond Scum Unite!
 

Soypwrd is on to something. I read where the entire Amazon forest could be cut down and planted and STILL not have enough arable land to grow the tonnage needed to meet today's fuel needs.

Maybe some good news. Daughter Julia did a summer intership assisting at the USDA labs in Beltsville, MD, in several projects studying methods wherein the fat content of various algae could be increased. The objective is to farm this stuff off-shore, harvest, process into biodiesel. Still in the lab phase but they are doing large-scale aglae production in sliuces up near Baltimore somewhere. The key will always be ROI on the cost of production. However it is controlled, the use of the sea frees up the land. Maybe politics.

On biodiesel production, especially DIY, I recommend Kemp's book. Here is a URL to the Amazon site: http://www.amazon.com/Biodiesel-Basics-Beyond-Comprehensive-Production/dp/0973323337/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/103-2817709-7127851?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1189878321&sr=8-1

About the first half is dedicated to what, why, and the analysis of maybe six home-brewers doing it now and why thier process might not be optimal. Then he goes on to describe his "outback" process (lives in the boonies of Canada) , mini-plant, quality control, testing lab, etc. He emphasizes the need for any homebrewer or co-op to meet ASTM specs and to dispose of by-products responsibly. Kemp apparently uses the produced biodiesel to power not only his home but also the mini-production plant.

One of these years, when I'm allowed to stay home for more than a couple of months a year, I might try to get a diesel generator, couple of water heaters, pumps, etc. and give it a try. Hope there is a biodiesel forum as well-informed as this one is on MB diesels.

Folks can also access the USDA website on the algae and other biofuel research going on.

Hmmm. Might not be a bad idea to request a forum catagory, separate or under Diesel Discussion, for this subject. The energy issue is not going away...

Other opinions?

Ethanol Fraud
 

There was a good article about the political reasons for ethanol in Rolling Stone http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/story/15635751/the_ethanol_scam_one_of_americas_biggest_political_boondoggles

A much more promising biofuel is butanol. It doesn't absorb water readily, so it doesn't have the storage, shipping and corrosion problems of ethanol. It can be made from a number of non-food sources and produces more energy by weight.

The big problem with that one is it has such an awful smell!!!

What the heck is Terra Preta !!!!???????????????!!!!!!!
 

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Hello Everyone


This stuff caught my eye.

It is called Terra Preta

There may be a way to grow all of the fuel stock we need and
return, yes return, carbon, and other nutrients to the earth.

That would mean you could drive your car
And be carbon negative. :eek:

http://www.css.cornell.edu/faculty/lehmann/terra_preta/TerraPretahome.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terra_preta

http://forums.hypography.com/terra-preta.html



Some real hippie, tree hugger, dirt worshiper, air breather, stuff.

Have Fun Everyone !
RichC
:joker:

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Here is your carbon offset. :)
http://www.enterpriseengine.com/Results/burnout.jpg
http://img132.imageshack.us/img132/4350/andynw1.jpg
http://hucker.fdns.net/tdiclub.jpg

That should offset a few thousand hippies. :D

Great trucks. Bosch injection pumps. Diesel engines.
 

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Thats funny ! :laugh3:

I own a 1994 Dodge Cummins diesel also.

It runs on veggie oil, and will do the same stuff
as the one in your pictures.

Gotta love those trucks.

Fear the hippie !!!

Have Fun !
RichC
:joker:

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