Washington State WVO R U Legal - Page 2 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

RichC · #16 12-06-2007, 10:41 PM

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Hello Everyone

Yes some of us are inherently good and honest.

And we want all of our road tax money back that we paid at the pump for the fuel we use in our lawn mowers, and other equipment !!

I believe people are good and honest.

Just some of them are so stupid they have a hard time.

Some people would be better suited being fence posts.

Hold on to your old Ideas all you want, things are going to change.

Have Fun

RichC

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Palangi · #17 12-06-2007, 10:55 PM

Does this still apply, or is there a "Saving the Planet" exemption??

http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/showthread.php?t=149919

pselaphid · #18 12-06-2007, 10:56 PM

Oh, and back to the topic, you folks in WA, I seriously doubt you'll be faced with any silly accusations of wrongdoing by testifying on this topic, because as we know, your worst critic is in CO. Really, its a proactive way to use an immediately available resource that otherwise is getting shipped to Europe or Asia for use as biodiesel, and this is the message that needs to be conveyed.

bustedbenz · #19 12-06-2007, 11:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bluebird

My post asked if anyone from Washington State was willing to testify. The bill as I have been told is for WVO personal use only not for Bio Diesel homebrew.
I asked for a method to pay the Road Use Tax or to exempt us from having to pay, they decided to exempt those of us that are using alternative fuels i.e. WVO.
The reason I use WVO is to get off foreign/petroleum oil, that is reason enough for me and apparently my Senators and Representatives.

On topic (I am in support of your bill but am not in Washington) - May I ask just for the sake of gaining information what is the difference between WVO and WVO with methanol added to it? In terms of legality or anything else? Isn't WVO and homebrew biodiesel the same stuff, for all intents and purposes EXCEPT how the car feels about it?

#20 12-07-2007, 12:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bluebird

Forced Induction why do you no longer have an ALDA or EGR system on your Benz arn't you breaking the law by doing so? You stand on your soap box exposing your negative messages without any solutions, just business as usual.

The OM617.95 used in 1980 (the year of my 240D) did not have an EGR system. The VNT turbo supplies more than enough air from idle to make the ALDA an unnecessary device to pass emissions requirements. My car and engine are in full compliance with state and federal emissions laws. Don't worry, I did my research to make sure I remain road-legal.

Quote:

Oh, and back to the topic, you folks in WA, I seriously doubt you'll be faced with any silly accusations of wrongdoing by testifying on this topic, because as we know, your worst critic is in CO.

Trust me, there are just as strong opponents in WA. They just need to step up and make their voices heard.

Quote:

May I ask just for the sake of gaining information what is the difference between WVO and WVO with methanol added to it?

Methanol should be removed from the oil before use. It's not good for the fuel system.

KAdams4458 · #21 12-07-2007, 12:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bustedbenz

On topic (I am in support of your bill but am not in Washington) - May I ask just for the sake of gaining information what is the difference between WVO and WVO with methanol added to it? In terms of legality or anything else? Isn't WVO and homebrew biodiesel the same stuff, for all intents and purposes EXCEPT how the car feels about it?

You know, I wonder the same thing. I fail to see how it should be okay for WVO to gain such legal status, but not biodiesel derived from WVO. This is something I will very happily, and quite loudly, voice my opinion on.

As for whether it should be allowed to become tax exempt... I honestly believe one of two things should happen in Washington. Either make it tax exempt, or make it simple for those using WVO in some form to pay road taxes. Heck, I believe that should happen in every state that's sitting on the fence. Inaction doesn't do a thing for anyone involved. Taxed or not, either would be a step in the right direction. Right now it's just illegal, and you've no choice but to break the law by using it as a road fuel. I, for one, would be perfectly content to pay the road taxes, but it needs to be a simplified process!

Bluebird, I'm in support of action, to be honest. Even if that action does apply only to WVO used straight in a tank at this point, it's a step in the right direction. You have my full support as a resident of Washington State, whether it's everything I want it to be, or not. Change needs to happen, now.

KAdams4458 · #22 12-07-2007, 12:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by C Sean Watts

come to an end. I guess now's as good a time as any.

Be prepared to answer, "How much in highway taxes have you PAID on that fuel?"

An easy answer for me. "Every penny!" The unregistered vehicle came with about half a gallon of an 80/20 WVO/RUG mix in the bottom of the tank, and has only been fueled with pump diesel while in my possession. I don't run WVO in my car, and never personally will. However, I do support using alternative fuels, and fully support home-brew bio, which I will gladly run if I am either told I don't have to pay road taxes on it, or am given an easy way to file and pay my road taxes for such fuel.

#23 12-07-2007, 12:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pselaphid

Oh, and back to the topic, you folks in WA, I seriously doubt you'll be faced with any silly accusations of wrongdoing by testifying on this topic.....

Just remember the phrase, "I do not recall at this time, Senator."

Not that I have a dog in this fight, but you folks might actually be better off with the current "don't ask - don't tell" policy. As soon as you go public, someone might decide there is money to be made off this stuff and the "home-brewers" may get pushed aside. I'm sure the folks in the "real" energy business know exactly what oil price will make commercial bio-diesel from WVO cost-effective. If this stuff ever catches on, it will be the established energy companies that are cashing the checks, simply because they own all the infrastructure. Also, this has "political football" written all over it; lots of noise (at least until the next election), then no action. In addition, the states do not have the authority to change (or exempt) federal fuel taxes. This may be fun to watch.

What's actually more interesting than this silliness is the prospect of collecting road taxes from plug-in electric vehicles. Even state politicians are smart enough not to write legislation around one specific technology. Any proposed legislation is likely to end up addressing the general subject of vehicles powered by all types of untaxed "fuel" (potentially, a very large can of worms). No rational government agency is going to give up it's future tax revenue from a class of vehicles that might actually be significant. It's one thing to use the lunatic fringe (who don't pay taxes anyway) to show how green you are during an election year, it's something else to give up actual revenue when ford or toyota starts selling real plug-in cars to the public.

Maybe a flat annual road tax of a few $100 should be required of any vehicle not using taxed road fuel. That would buy you a little sticker that would allow the use of any alternative fuels without additional taxes.

#24 12-07-2007, 12:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KAdams4458

You know, I wonder the same thing. I fail to see how it should be okay for WVO to gain such legal status, but not biodiesel derived from WVO. This is something I will very happily, and quite loudly, voice my opinion on.

I don't know that state legislatures are going to be very interested in encouraging folks processing BD in DIY facilities in residences (which is probably illegal anyway). Sooner or later, some clown will burn down his apartment building because he is processing BD in his bathroom with a hot-plate. Also, there is an established BD "industry" that sells taxed fuel and will not want the be underpriced by the DIY guys (imagine a bunch of folks getting together and forming a co-op to produce untaxed BD for "members" only). I would guess that some state politician has decided it's safe to talk about WVO, but not homemade BD.

GREASY_BEAST · #25 12-07-2007, 12:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Craig

I don't know that state legislatures are going to be very interested in encouraging folks processing BD in DIY facilities in residences (which is probably illegal anyway). Sooner or later, some clown will burn down his apartment building because he is processing BD in his bathroom with a hot-plate. Also, there is an established BD "industry" that sells taxed fuel and will not want the be underpriced by the DIY guys (imagine a bunch of folks getting together and forming a co-op to produce untaxed BD for "members" only). I would guess that some state politician has decided it's safe to talk about WVO, but not homemade BD.

Its just that type of protectionist attitude that restricts freedom and democracy in the world. If some guy burns down his apartment building, it shouldn't be the government's fault for not telling him he couldn't, it should be his fault for being stupid and lacking common sense.

I'll take up arms in support of your bill, but I live in VT so my vote doesn't count

EDIT: To answer Forced, you don't need to do an emissions test to determine that WVO is better for the environment. Pick up an ecology textbook and read about the carbon cycle.

#26 12-07-2007, 01:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GREASY_BEAST

Its just that type of protectionist attitude that restricts freedom and democracy in the world....

Apparently you haven't met many politicians, their overriding concern is covering their ass and getting reelected. This whole effort is likely to turn into a 15 second sound-bite for someone's next election, then be forgotten.

Look, I don't really care if a few 0.1% of folks want to drive around on untaxed garbage, it isn't enough tax money to care about and it's not my engine. However, we are not talking about "freedom and democracy in the world," we are talking about a bunch of dumpster divers who don't want to pay tax. If they can find a local politician that thinks they are good for a couple of seconds on the 6PM news, good for them.

KAdams4458 · #27 12-07-2007, 01:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Craig

I don't know that state legislatures are going to be very interested in encouraging folks processing BD in DIY facilities in residences (which is probably illegal anyway). Sooner or later, some clown will burn down his apartment building because he is processing BD in his bathroom with a hot-plate. Also, there is an established BD "industry" that sells taxed fuel and will not want the be underpriced by the DIY guys (imagine a bunch of folks getting together and forming a co-op to produce untaxed BD for "members" only). I would guess that some state politician has decided it's safe to talk about WVO, but not homemade BD.

I'm gonna have some fun with this post. You folks could use a little humour...

That clown will burn down his apartment complex, whether it's legal, or not. Anyway, making meth is more profitable for those sorts, so I doubt they'll be messing with biodiesel.

Stupid people happen, but restricting the population on a whole due to one moron's actions doesn't seem very smart.

I'm not sure that the biodiesel industry gives a hoot about individual brewers making stuff for home use. Co-ops for biodiesel already exist in Washington, and some of them do restrict fuel to members, I believe. There's nothing illegal about that, but they do pay tax on the stuff, even though the manufacturing process is subject to a number of reduced taxes. Washington State wants a percentage of its crops to be used for biofuels now, so they're very supportive of the alternative fuel movement. Most of that, however, is geared towards commercial venues.

Most people can't, or just won't be making the stuff at home, but that's no reason to make it illegal. Think about how many people do home improvement projects, and end up with leaking plumbing, or wiring that burns down their house. Should it be law that you have to hire a state approved contractor when you need something done on the house, no matter how simple it is? A lot of us couldn't afford to be home owners if that happened, and there would suddenly be a black market for wall paper and cabinet hardware. Just imagine how hard it would be to smuggle lumber! Thankfully, things aren't that way. It's interesting how contractors still aren't starving, despite a number of people working on their own homes.
Home brew bio is much the same... It's never going to be a large enough phenomenon to cause a stir among commercial producers, or providers.

I'm just spitting things out as they pop in to my head. Nothing I've said is really a hard and fast opinion, so don't jump me too hard, folks. I'm trying to inject a little humour, as well. These alternative fuel threads always end up so heated after a while.

RichC · #28 12-07-2007, 01:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bluebird

Hello all,
I have contacted my local Senators and Representatives about exempting WVO users from paying road use taxes, they have drafted a bill and will introduce it in Janurary 2008. They have asked if I and others would testify if needed, I am willing and so I am asking if anyone else that lives in Washington state would be willing to testify.

__________________

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Hello Bluebird

I live in Texas but if there is anyting I can do I would be glad to help.

Maybe if you get something passed there we can use that bill in other states.

Please keep us informed on how it goes.

Thank You
RichC

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GREASY_BEAST · #29 12-07-2007, 01:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Craig

Apparently you haven't met many politicians, their overriding concern is covering their ass and getting reelected. This whole effort is likely to turn into a 15 second sound-bite for someone's next election, then be forgotten.

Look, I don't really care if a few 0.1% of folks want to drive around on untaxed garbage, it isn't enough tax money to care about and it's not my engine. However, we are not talking about "freedom and democracy in the world," we are talking about a bunch of dumpster divers who don't want to pay tax. If they can find a local politician that thinks they are good for a couple of seconds on the 6PM news, good for them.

In most places WVO is classified as food, not fuel. Its hard/impossible to pay fuel tax on food.. i.e. nobody to send the check to. I personally pay taxes on all the fuel I burn. The food I burn, well thats a different story. I'd be interested to find out exactly how much the fuel tax ACTUALLY goes towards paying for the maintenance and upkeep of the roads... and whether its necessary.. that would be a better political inquiry than an admittedly fringe group trying to get a politician to say something on TV. In that respect I do agree with you... if thats what you were getting after.

If you haven't had your head under a rock for the past 5-10 years it should be pretty apparent that oil supplies are dwindling while oil demand increases, therefore a general "warming" trend in the prices

... sooner or later the fuel tax laws won't be applicable because people are gonna be burning everything from coal gas to home-distilled moonshine to wood chips in a steam engine... if the trend continues... I welcome the day. So doesn't it make sense to anticipate and change the laws accordingly? Basically facilitate a diverse energy market?????

KAdams4458 · #30 12-07-2007, 01:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GREASY_BEAST

In most places WVO is classified as food, not fuel. Its hard/impossible to pay fuel tax on food.. i.e. nobody to send the check to. I personally pay taxes on all the fuel I burn. The food I burn, well thats a different story.

Oh, no. My wife has been burning the bacon for years. She's a tax evader!