Yeah another member took my serious request to keep legal issues out of the thread as being a taunt aimed at him and started hijacking the thread.

I didn't have the good sense to ignore him and it started to get out of hand, so Brian stepped in and stopped the free-for-all, deleted all the off topic, ummm....STUFF, and got it back on track...

__________________
1984 300 Coupe TurboDiesel
Silver blue paint over navy blue interior
2nd owner & 2nd engine in an otherwise
99% original unmolested car
~210k miles on the clock

1986 Ford F250 4x4 Supercab
Charcoal & blue two tone paint over burgundy interior
Banks turbo, DRW, ZF-5 & SMF conversion
152k on the clock - actual mileage unknown

Negative.

All relevant posts have remained. Only the OT posts are deleted.

GOOD info! First hand experience is what I'm looking for. Personally, I would be afraid to go to that extreme, but I'm starting to lean towards 40% or maybe even 60% blend for the summer. Not too crazy about the idea of adding RUG to my blend either. I work for a company with a large fleet composed of about 3 diesels for every gasser. Every now and then someone will put unleaded in a diesel truck (or vice versa) and the results aren't good.

I know they are probably putting in a higher concentration than 10%, probably closer to 50% in most cases, and that they are mixing it with diesel, not vegetable oil. But the results are so catastrophic I think I'd rather play it safe and keep the RUG out of my blend.

Glad to hear that it is working for you though.

__________________
1984 300 Coupe TurboDiesel
Silver blue paint over navy blue interior
2nd owner & 2nd engine in an otherwise
99% original unmolested car
~210k miles on the clock

1986 Ford F250 4x4 Supercab
Charcoal & blue two tone paint over burgundy interior
Banks turbo, DRW, ZF-5 & SMF conversion
152k on the clock - actual mileage unknown

Search "FRANKIE" (s) last post. Her's ending up being terminal after adding 10 gal of SVO to a tank of D2 adn then driving from SF to LA. Developed a bad spray pattern on 1 or 2 inj's enroute and knocked/rattled itself apart getting home. Was a clean low mileage car; she wasnt in a position to rebuild it. There have been others if you look.

I personally wouldn't burn SVO/WVO or Homebrew bio but understand others desire to do so and the allure of helping the environment and being independent of dino. Those that use veggie unheated must accept greately increased risk IMO.

I did ask a question in another thread asking for anyone to stand up and claim they had put a quick 100k miles on their engine using heated or unheated veggie. One guy in england had 60K heated i think; some had half that and lots were at 10-15k.

__________________
Terry Allison
N. Calif. & Boca Chica, Panama

09' E320 Bluetec 77k (USA)
09' Hyundai Santa Fe Diesel 48k (S.A.)

I did the search on the member name "Frankie" and what I found was that
1) She had actually been running WVO (not SVO) blend for around 6 months (she said she started in January and her problem occurred in July or August)
2) Most of her blending was WVO and B50 or B99 (not #2) - which is not a good thing due to the potential of unreacted methanol freeing up some glycerol from the WVO
3) She never had a problem until after her blend got up to at least the 50% mark
4) Sounds like she may not have been running the tank nearly dry each fillup. If you don't do that, and aren't really carefull about the ratio of what you're adding to the tank, the concentration of WVO can gradually creep upwards - she may have been running significantly higher than 50%
5) It didn't rattle itself to death on the way home. She continued to drive it at least for a few days after getting home, but stopped until the exact problem could be pinpointed
6) She was blending WVO and I am wanting to blend SVO and there is a HUGE difference. WVO can have tons of animal fats, and water, and God knows what else in it. There is no way that I am aware of to remove the animal fat or other non-particulate, non-water contaminants from it OTHER than make it into biodiesel. If I had a good supply of WVO, then I wouldn't even think of pouring it directly into my tank - I'd convert it to bio. Food grade SVO is a totally different story. It is pretty much 100% pure and doesn't even have more than the tiniest residual trace amounts of water in it.

I never could find a thread where the final diagnosis of her problem was revealed. Just that the cold dry compression on #5 was all the way down to 100 psi. But whether the problem was coked rings, broken rings, stuck valve(s) or what is an answer I never did find...

Can you point me to a thread where the final diagnosis is revealed?

__________________
1984 300 Coupe TurboDiesel
Silver blue paint over navy blue interior
2nd owner & 2nd engine in an otherwise
99% original unmolested car
~210k miles on the clock

1986 Ford F250 4x4 Supercab
Charcoal & blue two tone paint over burgundy interior
Banks turbo, DRW, ZF-5 & SMF conversion
152k on the clock - actual mileage unknown

It wasn't, you saw her last post; my insights came from meeting her and discussions thereafter.

It developed a bad inj knock going up the Grapevine that didnt go away, limped home, limped to the mechanic, then home again kicking and bucking. My description of it knocking and rattling itself apart was appropriate with the bad spray patterns/combustion it had.

Its been a while, but as IIRC on THAT trip, she had filled up with 10 gals of D2 in San Mateo and then got 2-5 gal jugs of Canola (could have been peanut) at Costco in SJ. She had a single tank. Loaned her my good injectors from my 85 after she had soaked her rings with various secret sauces numerous times and problem continued to get worse.

Didnt really matter if was upper or lower end that had died at that point; repair costs made it a parts car or donor body. IIRC the mech felt it was the lower end. Even a used motor and install was more than the car was worth.

Not trying to pooh-pooh WVO/SVO/homebrew because some use it with good results. Personally, I do beleive there are risks, and that those risks increase using an unheated system.

I might think differently if there were folks out there who could attest to 100k mi using veg w/o any problems that one wouldn't have expected to have had if burning d2. There aren't any that I have seen(!), yet(???).

I'll check out now and y'all can continue with your thread. Good luck.

__________________
Terry Allison
N. Calif. & Boca Chica, Panama

09' E320 Bluetec 77k (USA)
09' Hyundai Santa Fe Diesel 48k (S.A.)

.

Been running WVO straight, and blends in the winter for over 3 years now
without any problems.

No modifications to the car, but I do live in Texas.

I have run WVO in 3 different Mercedes engine with no problems.
om617
om617 turbo
om616

And one Cummins engine.
12 valve, 6 BT

.

I filter and dewater the oil with a centrifuge.
And have a pretty good source of clear soybean oil.

There is some pretty good info over at
biodiesel.infopop.cc
about blending fuels.

And you can check out my centrifuge setup in the Dieselcraft thread.
I am RichC there also.

.

Have Fun !
RichC


.

__________________

When the power of love overcomes the love of power the world will know peace.
Jimi Hendrix

Rich, I would be interested to know exactly how much water your getting out of your oil.

I have been running a WVO blend for 3 years now, no modifiacations. I do 4 gallons WVO to 1 gallon RUG. I go 1 1/2 gallons RUG in the winter. I filter to 5 microns & I don't dewater but I have an excellent source for very good oil (no animal fats).

The one thing you have to remember when blending is you have to blend to REDUCE the viscosity to match diesel fuel. If you blend with diesel fuel your not accomplishing that.

If you do blend to match the viscosity of diesel fuel heating is not necessary in warm climates.

I have put blends in the refridgerator and haven't seen it loose viscosity. But you all can do your own experiments and see for yourselves.

Danny

__________________
1984 300SD Turbo Diesel 150,000 miles

OBK member #23

(\__/)
(='.'=) This is Bunny. Copy and paste bunny into your
(")_(") signature to help him gain world domination

How cold are your winters? lets starts using temperature numbers. does it get down to 45? 40? 35? 30? 25? degrees.........

Hmmn, well, that isn't what she describes here in post #8
Sudden nailing sound coming from engine on road trip.
Unless I'm reading it wrong she mixed 9 gallons B50 with 7 gallons WVO for the trip down to LA. Then topped up with D2, burned half of that and topped up with B100. SO she was running at least 50% bio and blending in WVO.

In terms of what ended up happening with the car you are correct - WHAT went wrong didn't matter - it was trashed. In terms of it being a cautionary anectdote about SVO it matters a great deal. If it broke a ring or burnt a valve on #5, that probably had nothing to do with what she was burning. If the low compression was due to rings being gummed up, then it likely is due to what she was burning. Though it would be pretty strange for ONE cylinder to be gummed up and the other 4 NOT be if it was due to the fuel - I mean they were all 5 getting the same stuff, right?

Likewise, I'm not trying to pooh-pooh the risks - particularly in a one-tank system. However, I am trying to evaluate the risks based on people's pertinent experience. I guess at this point, because of all 6 of the factors/observations/questions listed above, I'm questioning whether Frankie's situation is pertinent. Seems to me that, about the only thing her story has in common with my original question is that she was blending something non-diesel in her fuel. There is also the distinct possibliity that the problem wasn't even related to the fuel but only coincidental. Without knowing WHAT was the problem there is no way to say whether it had anything to do with the fuel or not.

I agree, I would like to see lots of those stories as well. So far about the best I've seen is 60k miles "with no (abnormal) problems" from blenders. But on the other hand, it takes most people years to rack up 100k and large numbers of people burning veg oil in any form (WVO/SVO) is a relatively new idea, brought on by high diesel prices in the last couple of years. The oldest conversion I have been able to find reference to so far was done in 2001. I have to believe that one is nearing 100k miles, but haven't confirmed it. There is one profile on the greasecar.com site of a guy with over 130k on his VW TDI running straight WVO. Here's the link
http://www.greasecar.com/profile.cfm?profileID=14

BTW, no need to check out. Even though Frankie's situation isn't a very close analogy to what I'm asking about and wanting to do, more info is always better - even if it is just an example of what NOT to do...

__________________
1984 300 Coupe TurboDiesel
Silver blue paint over navy blue interior
2nd owner & 2nd engine in an otherwise
99% original unmolested car
~210k miles on the clock

1986 Ford F250 4x4 Supercab
Charcoal & blue two tone paint over burgundy interior
Banks turbo, DRW, ZF-5 & SMF conversion
152k on the clock - actual mileage unknown

Post #8 - Well, so much for my memory.....After reading it again I still have the distinct recollection she had blended SVO/D2.

I don't know that you are going to find many definitive examples of your exact senario leading to failure as so many are want to expiriment before settling on a particular routine.

__________________
Terry Allison
N. Calif. & Boca Chica, Panama

09' E320 Bluetec 77k (USA)
09' Hyundai Santa Fe Diesel 48k (S.A.)

.

I do not have a way to measure the amount of water that comes off of the oil.

The centrifuge turns it into vapor that come off the top of the processing barrel.

But I can say there is not much vapor.
I will guess maybe 1/3 to 1/2 cup per 50 gallon.

Thanks
RichC


.

__________________

When the power of love overcomes the love of power the world will know peace.
Jimi Hendrix

...

We will see freezing temperatures here a few days ( 5 or 10 ) of the winter.

I try to keep a clear container of whatever blend I am using exposed to outside temperatures.

If the blend starts to thicken in the container I know to add more thinner.

..

About the best idea I have come across for temperature control of the blend is to have several clear containers of differing blends marked for
their content and sitting outside.

Take a look at what containers are thickening and choose a blend for use that is thinner.

Have Fun !
RichC


.

__________________

When the power of love overcomes the love of power the world will know peace.
Jimi Hendrix

Well, yes - and no. We all know viscosity for most liquids - including oils - varies a lot with temperature. Diesel MB vehicles were designed to run on #2 diesel down to temperatures below zero (it gets COLD in Germany). Those are the parameters that the injection system is designed to handle.

If you compare #2 diesel that is chilled to 0*, it is almost as thick as light weight motor oil that is at room temp. The injection system handles that just fine - and starting the engine under those conditions doesn't hurt it. So, what you really need is for your final blend - at the temps it will be used - to be as low or lower in viscosity than straight diesel would be at say 0*. SVO at room temp is already as thin or thinner than diesel is at 0* so a blend of diesel and SVO at room temp is definitely thinner than straight diesel is at 0*.

Add to that the fact that either fuel will be coming out of the injectors at around 120* once the engine is warmed up - and at that temp the viscosity difference between straight #2 and a 20%-50% diesel/SVO blend is even less.

I agree - and I already am doing my own experiments.

__________________
1984 300 Coupe TurboDiesel
Silver blue paint over navy blue interior
2nd owner & 2nd engine in an otherwise
99% original unmolested car
~210k miles on the clock

1986 Ford F250 4x4 Supercab
Charcoal & blue two tone paint over burgundy interior
Banks turbo, DRW, ZF-5 & SMF conversion
152k on the clock - actual mileage unknown

If you're going to blend with SVO you might as well NOT re-invent the wheel. Do some searches for "Schur Ecofuel". Hans Peter Schur was playing with blends back in the early 90's. He successfully ran his blend in unmodified IDI MB's. He had a 300D OM603 and had the motor taken apart to prove it worked (http://members.aol.com/hpschur/raps.html). In fact the independent report said that the motor was actually cleaner each time they tore it down. He even has a viscosity table, but you'll have to lose you're preconcieved idea that RUG is bad when blending. I spoke to the guy about 5 years ago and at that time, he said the car was still running.

__________________
1999 E300DT (131,800) 154,000 Black on Black SOLD

2006 CLK 500 coupe Capri Blue on Grey (zoom,zoom)
47,000mi

04 VW TDI Passat 80,000mi
(Techno)

How to eliminate oil dependency through market-driven approaches.
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