Separate Biodiesel WVO Forum?

[Rooster300SD]

What about creating a separate Forum here for those of us who have chosen to convert our Mercedes to run off of vegetable oil? When the topic comes up, all too often the discussion ends, not with advice, but with arguments.

People who haven't converted their cars over wouldn't be wasting their time going through a post they don't want or need to read and those of us who have done the conversion won't have to listen to people telling us what a terrible thing we've done. There's a separate forum for wheels and
performance, why not one for Biodiesel/WVO?

Good fences make good neighbors.

Jeff

[JEBalles]

Greasecar or frybrid forums are reasonably active, but the company can sometimes add bias. Biodiesel.infopop.cc is good too, but the forum set-up is weird and they have a lot of sub-topics which I find annoying.

[Biodiesel300TD]

Originally Posted by JEBalles

...the forum set-up is weird and they have a lot of sub-topics which I find annoying.

Which is why there hasn't been a biodiesel/veg oil forum started here. Though it's been discussed several times.

[Joe Marroso]

Originally Posted by Biodiesel300TD

Which is why there hasn't been a biodiesel/veg oil forum started here. Though it's been discussed several times.

Gentlemen,

I agree with everything stated thus far. This forum does, however, have a "thread" (5 lines down from the top) but is hardly comprehensive. I have posted there several times without eliciting vituperation from the Cro-Magnons.

If there is a better place, without the disingenuous shilling for favored manufacturers, I will go there as well. This site is invaluable, however, for the straight dope on fixee-fixee kind of jobs.

The latest post I put in the PeachParts WVO thread concerned centrifuges. I have come to the conclusion that centrifuging dirty WVO is the very best way to handle a crucial job. But the cost is too much for one enthusiast. I was trying to find a "partner" in the Las Vegas area.

Comments, information, anecdotes, sea stories?

Defeat the oil cartels and save the world.

Joe Marroso

[biopete]

On tdi club, the separate alternative fuels forum just makes it easy for the haters to find people to hate on and argue with. It's worse than FOX news on thinking people over there.

I think putting a good subject line in diesel discussion works well. Plus its nice to juts go to one forum and get all diesel stuff. This forum is very civil , much more so than the TDIclub with respect to respecting people's choices to do what they want with their cars. The TDI club moderators are lousy i think. They allow all kinds of disrespect.

I once posted a link over there to a post here by Brian Carlton (i think) doing a kick ass job of moderating some disrespectful person being stupid in a WVO discussion. I said something like, "Now this is how you handle these trolls. Check out this moderator in action. Now that is a Moderator!" The moderator got offended and deleted my post. I kept reposting link and it kept getting deleted. They are not impartial like judges should be over there.

[Renntag]

This is where the current info you seek is located:

Biodiesel and WVO - SVO links thread.

Much like trying to find the "regional" forums here, this is a convoluted way of keeping the info organized, but I am VERY grateful that we atleast have a list of threads on the topic.

I really enjoy this site in whole and also wish there was a specific WVO/SVO/Bio Diesel forum.

Can we vote on it? What would it take to make it happen? A simple Sub Forum of the Diesel forum OR a new top level forum. I think that it should be kept with the diesel section IMHO.

Many thanks to everyone involved in keeping this site running.

[mowoc]

Originally Posted by biopete

On tdi club, the separate alternative fuels forum just makes it easy for the haters to find people to hate on and argue with. It's worse than FOX news on thinking people over there.

I think putting a good subject line in diesel discussion works well. Plus its nice to juts go to one forum and get all diesel stuff. This forum is very civil , much more so than the TDIclub with respect to respecting people's choices to do what they want with their cars. The TDI club moderators are lousy i think. They allow all kinds of disrespect.

I once posted a link over there to a post here by Brian Carlton (i think) doing a kick ass job of moderating some disrespectful person being stupid in a WVO discussion. I said something like, "Now this is how you handle these trolls. Check out this moderator in action. Now that is a Moderator!" The moderator got offended and deleted my post. I kept reposting link and it kept getting deleted. They are not impartial like judges should be over there.

I am not sure that the moderators are supposed to be impartial - whoever owns the site sets the law. It is not fun, but your choices are either put up with it or not use the forum. I am not poking at you or saying it is right. I have seen this type of thing on other sites and short of starting your own I don't see how you get around it.

I would also say that while all the vegetable oil people are sure they have the right to do with their car as they see fit (and they do IMHO) I appreciate the spirited debate that shows up here from time to time. I am really pretty ignorant about conversions and what is involved along with the potential issues. I am appreciative for the education I get from these discussions. I would always want to see both sides of a contentious issue before embarking on the process.

I see the same type of discussions on motorcycle forums - many there like to put car tires on the rear wheel since they wear longer than normal motorcycle tires.

[ah-kay]

This is free speech and it is their rights. I tune out on people who posted nasty comments on WVO or Bio as they post without researching the issues. I find this 'Diesel Discussion' have a lot of hits, more so than other tropic or sub-tropics. Some honorable members are very knowlegable and impartial on WVO. At the end of the day you can always ignore the ignorances.

[Renntag]

Originally Posted by mowoc

... I am really pretty ignorant about conversions and what is involved along with the potential issues.....

If I may digress and comment.

1. Rudolph Diesel intended to use Peanut Oil. Not modern Diesel from petroleum.
2. It can be argued that there is no "Conversion". All older diesels will run on nearly any compression combustible material that is clean. (Clean is the key).
3. Pure Bio-Diesel, B100, (100% Bio-Diesel) will clean the fuel system and accelerate the deterioration of rubber parts. This requires early replacement of filters and rubber parts which is normal for Petro diesel as well. I rank this with the argument of natural foods, they are healthier, but they spoil more quickly. So you change your mind set and daily routine accordingly. No loss.
note: Lesser blends, B20 (20% Bio/ 80% petro) are accepted by manufacturers. Some new diesels are shipped with B20 to dealers. Bio-diesel has higher lubricity than current low sulphur diesel.
4. SVO refers to use of straight vegetable oil as fuel, this is NOT Bio-Diesel. This is where the misnomer of "conversion" comes into play. Typical (but not all) SVO cars utilize a secondary fuel tank and delivery to the IP. Installation of such a system is inaccurately, IMO, referred to as 'conversion'. VO can also be used from the main tank, thus NOT requiring the secondary system.
5. Vegetable oil is no more harmful than diesel to the motor. Fuel must be clean and dry. Simple.

To burn straight veg oil, it is optimal to inject fuel that is at 160*F. Heating the fuel stream achieves this. There is really no rocket science to this process and the early Mercedes are prime candidates for this type use.


My interest in WVO/SVO is partially driven by my need to tinker, save money, and my interest in the US becoming 100% free of foreign oil.

[JEBalles]

Originally Posted by Renntag

If I may digress and comment.

1. Rudolph Diesel intended to use Peanut Oil. Not modern Diesel from petroleum.
2. It can be argued that there is no "Conversion". All older diesels will run on nearly any compression combustible material that is clean. (Clean is the key).
3. Pure Bio-Diesel, B100, (100% Bio-Diesel) will clean the fuel system and accelerate the deterioration of rubber parts. This requires early replacement of filters and rubber parts which is normal for Petro diesel as well. I rank this with the argument of natural foods, they are healthier, but they spoil more quickly. So you change your mind set and daily routine accordingly. No loss.
note: Lesser blends, B20 (20% Bio/ 80% petro) are accepted by manufacturers. Some new diesels are shipped with B20 to dealers. Bio-diesel has higher lubricity than current low sulphur diesel.
4. SVO refers to use of straight vegetable oil as fuel, this is NOT Bio-Diesel. This is where the misnomer of "conversion" comes into play. Typical (but not all) SVO cars utilize a secondary fuel tank and delivery to the IP. Installation of such a system is inaccurately, IMO, referred to as 'conversion'. VO can also be used from the main tank, thus NOT requiring the secondary system.
5. Vegetable oil is no more harmful than diesel to the motor. Fuel must be clean and dry. Simple.

To burn straight veg oil, it is optimal to inject fuel that is at 160*F. Heating the fuel stream achieves this. There is really no rocket science to this process and the early Mercedes are prime candidates for this type use.


My interest in WVO/SVO is partially driven by my need to tinker, save money, and my interest in the US becoming 100% free of foreign oil.

Careful, not everyone accepts all those as truths.

[mowoc]

Originally Posted by JEBalles

Careful, not everyone accepts all those as truths.

See?

[DSlater]

Rudolph Diesel did not design the engines in our cars.

And,

"It is often reported that Diesel designed his engine to run on peanut oil, but this is not the case. Diesel stated in his published papers, "at the Paris Exhibition in 1900 (Exposition Universelle) there was shown by the Otto Company a small diesel engine, which, at the request of the French Government ran on Arachide (earth-nut or pea-nut) oil (see biodiesel), and worked so smoothly that only a few people were aware of it. The engine was constructed for using mineral oil, and was then worked on vegetable oil without any alterations being made. The French Government at the time thought of testing the applicability to power production of the Arachide, or earth-nut, which grows in considerable quantities in their African colonies, and can easily be cultivated there." Diesel himself later conducted related tests and appeared supportive of the idea.[40]"

40. The Biodiesel Handbook, Chaper 2 - The History of Vegatable Oil Based Diesel Fuels, by Gerhard Knothe, ISBN 1893997790

THIS is why there is so much debate on the issue. Cro-magnon indeed.

[Brian Carlton]

We've tossed the idea of a separate biodiesel/WVO forum around many times.

Each time we do, we end up with the same conclusion:

There are a limited number of threads that are necessary for this discussion and such a forum would end up as a bit of a pariah. Our experiment with the "Diesel Performance Tuning" sub-forum has not been all that much of a success. While there are plenty of topics, not enough members support such a forum and it's relatively inactive.

The only good reason to have a sub-forum is if the main forum is cluttered with topics of a single genre such as WVO. I don't see that as the situation.

With regard to those who see fit to trash the WVO threads, be advised that I'll moderate any thread quite strictly by the criteria set by the OP, provided that the OP clearly defines what he desires in the thread. If I miss a post or two, please feel free to send me a PM as a reminder.

B.C.

[Renntag]

Originally Posted by DSlater

Rudolph Diesel did not design the engines in our cars.

Clearly, nor did I suggest such.

I will have to dig up where I read what I shared. Not one to quote from the arse, I wish I could site my source, (ISBN number and all ... LOL )

[DSlater]

Sorry, just sick of seeing an untrue fact (that R Diesel designed his motor to run on peanut oil from the get-go is the way people USUALLY present it and I thought you were too) trotted out as some kind of rationale for people running crap through these engines. Wouldn't be so bad to me if I weren't just now, after over a year of babying, getting number five to fire again in mine. MMO freeing VO stuck rings, once again. Learned about it here from others who have faced exactly the same problem. Very irksome. Probably could have taken the car offline and soaked it for a week for quicker results, but whatever. How many of these cars are being ruined? It's like a forest. Lots of pretty trees, who cares if we cut this one down? One isn't a problem. A nation full of inept tinkerers and cheapskates cutting is, to many of us anyway.