Parts Catalog Accessories Catalog How To Articles Tech Forums
Call Pelican Parts at 888-280-7799
Shopping Cart Cart | Project List | Order Status | Help



Go Back   PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum > Mercedes-Benz Tech Information and Support > Diesel Discussion > Alternative Fuels

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
  #31  
Old 11-05-2010, 01:32 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 3,652
Quote:
Originally Posted by layback40 View Post
Tom,
You know there is always a success story about WVO being touted about. Trouble is that no one can actually find the details. Its always a case of some one said some thing in a forum on the internet.
On the other hand you may like to read the following, these guys are in the biz of promoting its use.

http://www.ncat.org/special/oilseeds_innovations4.php

There are not too many properly conducted tests out there.

Nothing on google for "Shur deisel" or even "Shur diesel" all you get is sour diesel; hippie stuff about dope, kind of relates back to my original post.
Try Schur Ecofuel.
http://poelwiki.de/index.php?title=Schur-Mischung

I've also read that some types of injectors, help with the atomization of WVO. I think Monark might make that claim on their nozzles.

Tom

Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 11-05-2010, 01:34 PM
JB3 JB3 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: RI
Posts: 7,247
Quote:
Originally Posted by patbob View Post
I read a study where they evaluated using SVO in tractors. If I recall, they tore down the engines and evaluated them after the tests. They found that for short periods of time (a few tank fulls, IIRC), no permanent damage was done by burning SVO, but that if run for longer it tended to foul up the engine and cause performance decline.

Lots of caveats to the comparison between what they did and running WVO in a 20 year old diesel mercedes, but, since WVO isn't better for the engine, you shouldn't expect even similar results.

If I recall, they found that deposits accumulated until performance declined. They didn't check to see if running normal diesel for a while cleaned out the accumulation. They were trying to determine if farmers could safely run SVO, and for how long, before it started to cost them in extra maintence and they got their answer -- briefly = no problem, long term = problem.

I read those too. Heat is the key, these were 'dump VO in the fuel tank and see what happens" studies. The huge factor is that they completely demonstrated that you could not run cold VO in a diesel engine long term without modification.

The studies did not utilize or address the concept of heated aux VO dedicated fuel systems after the engine was up to temp.
Of course, like everything with VO, the merits of single tank vs double tank are a continued source of debate. I personally believe a single tank conversion to be wholly less capable and more problematic.
__________________
This post brought to you by Carl's Jr.
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 11-05-2010, 02:00 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: UK
Posts: 331
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvelicious View Post
The more reading I do, the more I come to a couple conclusions.

1 You should be fairly tech savvy to even attempt to use waste oil as fuel

2 If you are savvy enough to build a good WVO conversion, you're savvy enough to build and operate a small biodiesel converter.

I feel like the filtering, settling effort necessary to ensure the safety of WVO negates any convenience advantage. You still have to "process" it, its just a simpler process. OTOH biodiesel, if properly manufactured and tested should work as well as dino diesel.

For the record, this is based only on what I've read. I've got no personal experience either way, but I've been doing a lot of reading because I have WVO readily available to me. I wouldn't mind putting it to use - but not to the detriment of a car that I really like.

yup.

Ideally you want an engine that runs at less than 2,500 RPM, because you start running up against the physical limit of the flame front speed in the combustion chamber with WVO/VO/SVO, this is like det cord, the speed the flame front burns at has little to do with other properties it has, and nothing to do with the ignition method, #2 diesel burns faster so will tolerate higher RPM, you want to go higher than that you work your way up to gasoline, etc etc.

Ideally you want a minimum cylinder volume of 1 litre, the average saloon car, or MB, 500cc is just too small, plot a graph of square (bore = stroke) engines of different cylinder capacity, it is not linear, a 2 x 2 x 2 box has a volume of 8, and an area of 24, so area / volume = 3

a 4 x 4 x 4 box has a volume of 64, and an area of 96, area / volume = 1.5

With the bigger cylinder more of your fuel air mixture is in contact with more F/A mixture, and less cylinder wall, which absorbs free electrons and slows down the flame front and causes incomplete combustion in the eddy layers there.

Ideally you want a direct injection, ideally centre of the bore right down onto the piston crown, ideally you want a flat top piston too, not a swirl chamber one, too prone to producing chips of carbon.

Ideally you want a decent in-line pump, THE ONE THING THE MB HAS, but most 70's and 80's light trucks and buses had in-line pumps too.

=======================

Even so, WVO still kills Bosch pumps, I've seen many, many, many Bosch pumps taken of mercs that had over 500k miles, and the pumps were all basically as good as new, these pumps, when fed with clean lube oil and clean filtered #2 diesel, will go a million miles no problem.

=====================

As others have said, burning WVO in a home heating furnace is win-win-win, there is no downside, it is all profit.

You can also burn WVO in an old stationary engine powering a gen head to give yourself almost free electric, something like the Lister CS series with separate Bryce injection pump, it is indirect injection (and variable compression) but at a single 1,400 cc cylinder and 650 or 800 rpm max, they will burn anything, so again, it is win-win-win.

I know of people burning WVO very well and very successfully in boats, (essentially stationary engines) because they get tax breaks and "green" subsidies that make it worthwhile.

I know one guy who went the whole hog and built a pukka WVO > Bio-diesel plant, small commercial scale, that produced fuel good enough for vehicles and the makers and the state, he gave it up because it was costing so much per litre of product that he couldn't compete, given the public view of B100 as some sort of inferior product that should be 50% of dino diesel prices tops.

There are so many good things to do with WVO/VO/SVO, but unfortunately running it in relatively small, relatively light weight, relatively high revving automobile engines just ain't one of em.

That's physics, not big oil, not the state, not anything else... just physics.
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 11-05-2010, 02:00 PM
Diesel911's Avatar
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Long Beach,CA
Posts: 51,847
Quote:
Originally Posted by 75Sv1 View Post
Try Schur Ecofuel.
http://poelwiki.de/index.php?title=Schur-Mischung

I've also read that some types of injectors, help with the atomization of WVO. I think Monark might make that claim on their nozzles.

Tom
Mercedes Source kind of claims that the Monaks were made for use with WVO (C Sean Watts would be the one to ask for that info). I doubt that is the case.
Some company called Elsbert or Elsbit sells Nozzles they caim to work better woth SVO, WVO but I have never even see a pic of them let alone read any sort of test of them.

The Monarks have a cut called a Facet on the end of the Nozzle Pintel. The same is used on the later Bosch Nozzles for Mercedes. This is what makes me doubt that the Mercedes Source claim that the were designed for WVO use is bogus.
__________________
84 300D, 82 Volvo 244Gl Diesel
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 11-05-2010, 02:24 PM
JB3 JB3 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: RI
Posts: 7,247
Quote:
Originally Posted by W124 E300D View Post
yup.

Ideally you want an engine that runs at less than 2,500 RPM, because you start running up against the physical limit of the flame front speed in the combustion chamber with WVO/VO/SVO, this is like det cord, the speed the flame front burns at has little to do with other properties it has, and nothing to do with the ignition method, #2 diesel burns faster so will tolerate higher RPM, you want to go higher than that you work your way up to gasoline, etc etc.
I always find if ironic when those that are the most against something and state they won't even touch it ALWAYS seem to know the most about the technical aspects of something as well.

This post is the first ive heard anywhere about a 2500 rpm limit by anyone, despite my own personal experience of years of running VO at a higher rpm than that.
__________________
This post brought to you by Carl's Jr.
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old 11-05-2010, 02:55 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: UK
Posts: 331
Quote:
Originally Posted by dropnosky View Post
I always find if ironic when those that are the most against something and state they won't even touch it ALWAYS seem to know the most about the technical aspects of something as well.

This post is the first ive heard anywhere about a 2500 rpm limit by anyone, despite my own personal experience of years of running VO at a higher rpm than that.
Part of what we all had to study / learn is all, there is nothing new about vegetable oil.

When I say 2500 RPM limit, it isn't a hard limit, and there are a lot of variables, with a little trig you can work out max piston speeds at a given rpm for various strokes, but the variation isn't as big as many people think, and the reason is piston speed is related to flame path speed.

When you exceed the "limit" all that happens is you start entering the realm of diminishing returns, and increasing levels of undesireables.

Undesireables are what kills an engine, they are what cause carbon loading in the lube oil, microdieseling (cavitation in microscopic bubbles) and spark erosion (again, a micro scale phenomenon) all of which cause major chemical changes in the engine fluids and there fore their properties.

Back in the day, a diesel engine that did 2,500 RPM was called a high speed diesel, 1000/1200 RPM medium speed, and 500 RPM low speed, again, it always comes back to maximum flame front speed.

The faster you rev, the more issues you create at the boundary layers between the metal engine components and the gases in the combustion chamber, just like a river, measured flow speed depends on depth and distance from the bank...

What it boils down to is the VO, and it's closest dino relative #4 or #5 oil, works best in a bigger, heavier, slower revving diesel, like a truck diesel.

This is also why it is almost impossible to make an efficient (#2 diesel) diesel engine with a cylinder smaller than 350/400 cc.

Think about it, why doesn't anyone make small (chainsaw sized) diesel engines? The injection and atomisation all scales down extremely well, modern materials can handle the stresses easily enough, and the diesel torque would be ideal, there isn't anything else except the facts that area/volume sucks, and useful power rpm is way above flame speed.

It's like saying that BHP is just a way of measuring the engine's maximum fuel consumption rate, it sounds wrong and counter intuitive (as does you buy the horsepower, you drive the torque) but if you actually sit down and do the math... suddenly it all works.

Why can't a 600cc 100 BHP jap motorcycle engine pull a wagon the same as a 5 litre displacement 100 BHP diesel?

Flame speed is the most significant property of a fuel in an internal combustion engine.

All you "hand loader" americans should "get" this intuitively.
Reply With Quote
  #37  
Old 11-05-2010, 03:00 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Austin TX
Posts: 352
I would love to have my car RUN FOREVER, but I understand it has mechanical parts that are designed to wear out. It doesnít matter what fuel you put in it, itís just a matter of time. I personally run biodiesel and WVO with a grease car kit, and I know even if I ran nothing but diesel, it would still need a new IP. And these cars are great to convert over to wvo. But a lot of people are going to have problems if they donít follow the rules. Youíre going to need to run wvo with a kit that allows the wvo to get to 160-180 degrees and purges back the unburnt fuel back to the wvo tank when you turn off the car/truck. Your also going to need to keep the wvo and biodiesel/ diesel in two different tanks. You donít want to blend. Itís okay to burn a little diesel in the wvo tank. But you donít want to blend both fuels in the diesel tank. Running cold grease isnít ever a good idea.
Secondly itís import to understand that you are in charge of the quality control when it comes to WVO fuel. You have to make sure that your wvo is at least filtered to 5 micro and ALL of the water has been removed. These are where people get into a lot of problems. You have to dewater all wvo before it goes into your carís wvo tank. And the wvo has to be tested with a fry pan test or other water test to make sure itís water free. Water will destroy any IP.
Itís also a good idea to change out your motor oil more often and do an oil analyses on the motor oil and wvo you are running. Iíve seen a lot of people try to go by looking at it, or smelling it, or using a magic whatever. But unless you have some solid data to go after itís not good to guess.
Iíve been burning wvo for 5 years now, and the largest problems I come across is owning a wvo powered car is working on older cars with 20 year old suspension, trannies, and electrical wiring. I really havenít had any problems with wvo.
If you would like to find out more about running your car or truck of wvo visit a site like www.greasecar.com.

Good luck and be safe.
__________________
Professional greasecar installer
Austin TX


98 Jetta TDI with grease car kit + veg-therm (totaled)
87 MB 300SDL running on B99 / greasecar kit + 30 fphe
www.austingreaseguys.com
Reply With Quote
  #38  
Old 11-05-2010, 03:03 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: San Diego
Posts: 3,545
My $0.02

First and foremost, this is the wrong forum to ask questions on WVO. There are a lot of nay-say-er around here. There are a lot of long posts for and against WVO but I will try to tell my own experience.

1) People get jealous when I tell them I use WVO and drive for free plus my sweat labor. I then ask them if they change their oil or brake pads themselves. When they say no then I tell them to stick to gas or diesel. If they do not heed your warnings then they are the half-a** mechanics who stand a high risk to ruin their car. But it is their cars and money after all.

2) Most people try to convert old MBZ diesel, at least 15+ year old. So any problems they encounter may be inherent to the car already, that is, pre-existing conditions. Not many people in their right mind would try WVO on a new $50K CDI.

3) People complains that WVO will shorten your engine life. I have yet to be convinced that cars running on diesel will last a long life or forever.

4) There are a lot of factors that determine engine/IP life. Fuel used is one of the factors but not all. I have used WVO successfully and have over 45K on a 300SDL, 30K on a 300D and 10K on a 190D. I have had everything, anything thrown at them, including atf, WMO, brake fluid and PS fuild and they are still running strong.

5) I have installed water diesel separator and after-glow circuit in the cars. I believe there is no ill-effect on the engine if the conversion is done right.

6) I met fellow forum members in SoCal that use WVO/RUG mix successfully without ANY modification to the cars.

7) Now get back to the OP questions. The short answer is possible. The long answer is it depends on a lot of factors. This forum is skewed because most of the posts are problems related so any statistic gleaned from the posts on WVO is unreliable and meaningless.
__________________
Not MBZ nor A/C trained professional but a die-hard DIY and green engineer. Use the info at your own peril. Picked up 2 Infractions because of disagreements. NOW reversed.

W124 Keyless remote, PM for details. http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/mercedes-used-parts-sale-wanted/334620-fs-w124-chasis-keyless-remote-%2450-shipped.html

1 X 2006 CDI
1 x 87 300SDL
1 x 87 300D
1 x 87 300TDT wagon
1 x 83 300D
1 x 84 190D ( 5 sp ) - All R134 converted + keyless entry.
Reply With Quote
  #39  
Old 11-05-2010, 03:07 PM
Banned
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Texafornia
Posts: 5,493
I'de save it for home heating -and get an old rabbit or isuzu pickup to run the crap thru--with 2 tanks and 50/50, switch on after 15mins.
Reply With Quote
  #40  
Old 11-05-2010, 03:46 PM
Marvelicious's Avatar
Naturally Aggravated
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: NW OR
Posts: 265
Quote:
Originally Posted by ah-kay View Post
First and foremost, this is the wrong forum to ask questions on WVO. There are a lot of nay-say-er around here...
This forum definitely has its prejudices. Like the specifications for these vehicles were handed directly from God to the Mercedes engineers. I'm pretty sure there are a few on here who would only buy their FUEL from the dealership if it were available.

...and just for W124, I give you:
The Diesel Chainsaw

__________________
'82 300SD - Somewhere over 220k - Becoming reliable...
Reply With Quote
  #41  
Old 11-05-2010, 03:50 PM
Olivier's Avatar
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Edinburgh
Posts: 570
engineering is great
__________________
E300TD year 2000. RUSTY SOLD
cost a fortune to maintain on the road
but run well on WVO
Second Merc died due to corrosion ( NOT rust) How can mercedes get away with that for so long?
Third lasted a month then went away...
Fourth now... Corroded too...
Reply With Quote
  #42  
Old 11-05-2010, 03:56 PM
JB3 JB3 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: RI
Posts: 7,247
Quote:
Originally Posted by W124 E300D View Post
Part of what we all had to study / learn is all, there is nothing new about vegetable oil.
-------
When I say 2500 RPM limit, it isn't a hard limit, and there are a lot of variables, with a little trig you can work out max piston speeds at a given rpm for various strokes, but the variation isn't as big as many people think, and the reason is piston speed is related to flame path speed.
-------
What it boils down to is the VO, and it's closest dino relative #4 or #5 oil, works best in a bigger, heavier, slower revving diesel, like a truck diesel.

-------
All you "hand loader" americans should "get" this intuitively.
(above post edited for space)

So what type of VO are you basing you initial numbers off of?

Since it seems you love the off topic nationalistic jabs , to that point, we can discuss what kind of oils are available in what countries, which may have some bearing on your equation.

I have been told that pure Rapeseed oil is the VO of choice in Germany, how about in the UK?
In the US, the most common source of oil is waste oil bins and for free or extremely cheap, using an enormous variety of oil stock, all with different specifications. With that issue, it is very difficult to create hard data in the way you have done in an earlier post.
Like I said earlier, here its a non regulated fuel meaning that there are huge differences in one sample from another.

To address another one of your comments-

"So basically, you have to do 10,000 miles, 100% trouble free, to break even."

You say this like its an argument against putting in a system because it will take a while to pay off. You also come up with that number based on the fact that you are paying for VO in your part of the world, an additional cost and more time.

Most people drive 10-20 thousand miles in a year, others more. I personally drive off 10,000 miles in 4 months usually.

A third of a year to a half a year to reach the 0 mark on money invested is a pretty good return on investment. After that, assuming no problems, the rest is money in your pocket. Most things in life don't pay off that fast.

Its extremely cost effective for the most part.
__________________
This post brought to you by Carl's Jr.
Reply With Quote
  #43  
Old 11-05-2010, 04:44 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: UK
Posts: 331
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvelicious View Post
...and just for W124, I give you:
The Diesel Chainsaw


I actually know someone with a comet chainsaw, it's akshully TVO (tractor vapourising oil) not #2 diesel.

I was actually waiting for someone to point out that RC engines are often "diesel", but they don't run on diesel per se.

For those interested in flame front speeds...
http://www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?Location=U2&doc=GetTRDoc.pdf&AD=ADA433310

and a short video of injected fuel combusting
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_IFCubco95w
Reply With Quote
  #44  
Old 11-05-2010, 04:56 PM
babymog's Avatar
Loose Cannon - No Balls
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Northeast Indiana
Posts: 10,765
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvelicious View Post
...and just for W124, I give you:
The Diesel Chainsaw

Don't ignore the COX engines, which were 2-stroke diesels .049cu/in displacement, ran 35,000rpm. The surface/volume ratio on these things really was bad.

Efficiency though? I don't think so.

Ran on a methanol blend.
__________________

Gone to the dark side

- Jeff
Reply With Quote
  #45  
Old 11-05-2010, 09:00 PM
layback40's Avatar
Not Banned
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Victoria Australia - down under!!
Posts: 4,023
Tom,
your Schur stuff is for DI motors, not IDI.

Found this there some place in your link.

Hey Julei -
hey people.

I think it is all right if one thinks of a mixture, if a man DI "torture".
I ride with my Polo Ale engine, a mixture. However, I have my own "concoctions"
developed. Thought I got me the deal for the following reason, that man should first have a good combustion to avoid piston seizure (fouling) and more. Here is my mix, which is valid for the summer and not yet applied for a patent:

Ca 90% Approximately 90% stale potato soup
10% diesel in winter a little more,
, a cup of E 85 on a tank
20 liters per 100 cc explosives replacement! (Vertrieb: Firma RUnkel). (Distribution: Runkel).

Not in the tank! Then the potato soup
enter into the mixing tank (20-40 liter barrels) can. All problems. Then, purely in the main tank.

This should, however, by a "professional of the rapeseed oil industry," the VP37 can be adjusted electronically to early!
This man needs a PC and a program - and who can deal with things. . People can certainly antrefen again on the next "rapeseed oil fair in the Lower Rhine.

In my "running" this
Must not be for everyone.

MfG. Best regards. KBD KBD
The most necessary would be done. Further refinements to be retrofitted

We have all heard of peanut shells & coal dust, but used potato soup is a new one!! Maybe they mean oil that has been used for cooking potato chips. I like the potato soup line better !!!
Again this stuff is no more than internet talk. No proper tests.
Talk is cheap, motor rebuilds are not, there is also suggestion of "stuck rings" in the chat. That appears to be a taboo topic with the WVO hippies. Its a bit like the lump that you choose to ignore until the secondary tumors appear.

When you see something like this in a signature, best take what is said with a grain (or better a bucket) of salt.

Professional greasecar installer
Austin TX

Their opinion is far from independent. They make a living from promoting these systems.

When there is a failure of a system, its always the operator that has done something wrong.

Its interesting that they also provide a link to a company that collects WVO for processing into bio diesel, not for direct use in motors as WVO. This further highlights how commercial interests skews what they may say is "technical advice". It has little to do with proper engineering principles.
So far there are only 2 proper reports sited on this thread, all the remainder is nothing but internet noise !!

__________________
Grumpy Old Diesel Owners Club group

I no longer question authority, I annoy authority. More effect, less effort....

1967 230-6 auto parts car. rust bucket.
1980 300D now parts car 800k miles
1984 300D 500k miles
1987 250td 160k miles English import
2001 jeep turbo diesel 130k miles
1998 jeep tdi ~ followed me home. Needs a turbo.
1968 Ford F750 truck. 6-354 diesel conversion.
Other toys ~J.D.,Cat & GM ~ mainly earth moving

Last edited by layback40; 11-05-2010 at 09:34 PM.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On




All times are GMT -4. The time now is 04:28 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2024 Pelican Parts, LLC - Posts may be archived for display on the Peach Parts or Pelican Parts Website -    DMCA Registered Agent Contact Page