A Modest Proposal WVO/Biodiesel forum interest

[bgiovan]

Actually had an interesting discussion over on the dieselplace board (we have a 97 6.5L Diesel Suburban also). One thing that always gets lost is the millions of acres of farmland the government takes "off the map" thru CRP payments, etc. Folks tend to make the argument that if you switch to veg oil based fuel it'll make food prices skyrocket. My take is that if the government would release these millions of acres under CRP to farm for alternative fuels that argument is moot. One idea I had was a soy "leasing program" where soy is farmed, "leased" to restaurants, but collected and used as fuel, feed, whatever. More than one use out of the product.

The end result I think is to get government out of the business of picking winners and losers and eventually you'll have a bunch of different alternatives to choose from, all of which are viable and embraced based on market choices. But that'll never happen so who am I kidding!

[StaggerLee]

When has commercial biodiesel EVER been cheaper than D1/D2. When D1/D2 reaches $5/gal., Biodiesel will be at $5.50 or $6.00.

Until the price can compete with D1/D2, the only people using biodiesel on a regular basis are tree-sniffing bunny huggers trying to save the environment, or, people with too much money to worry about a $.50/gallon difference.

In my opinion, Commercial Biodiesel is a fad until it can compete with D2, price-wise.

Originally Posted by retmil46

Aye, there's the rub - either "conventional" fuels need to go UP in price, or alternatives need to come DOWN in price, for there to be any realistic competition or choices.

But then you have the government meddling in the marketplace with boondoggles such as their ethanol program, and as was said, letting politics pick the marketplace winners and losers.

I think we all understand that petro-fuels are not going down in price. If it stays about the same, only the lunatic fringe will play with biofuels. If it goes up enough, the adults will get involved and we will have commercially available bio-fuels (with appropriate taxes and quality control).

[Zacharias]

Originally Posted by Craig

I think we all understand that petro-fuels are not going down in price. If it stays about the same, only the lunatic fringe will play with biofuels. If it goes up enough, the adults will get involved and we will have commercially available bio-fuels (with appropriate taxes and quality control).

Fuel prices are going to rise, for a variety of reasons. Not least among these is the frightening prospect of India ramping up demand as its emerging middle class becomes voracious auto consumers.

Here in eastern-central Canada we've seen prices go up by about $1.50 or more in gallon terms over the last few years. The latest rise (around 40-50 cents per gallon in one shot) occurred with no warning just before the holiday season.

[75Sv1]

Originally Posted by StaggerLee

When has commercial biodiesel EVER been cheaper than D1/D2. When D1/D2 reaches $5/gal., Biodiesel will be at $5.50 or $6.00.

Until the price can compete with D1/D2, the only people using biodiesel on a regular basis are tree-sniffing bunny huggers trying to save the environment, or, people with too much money to worry about a $.50/gallon difference.

In my opinion, Commercial Biodiesel is a fad until it can compete with D2, price-wise.

You forgot the US Military.
Tom

[bgiovan]

Craig, I agree with you for the most part except your reference about the lunatic fringe. I consider myself pretty normal actually. I could easily afford to drive something better and roll up to the pump like everyone else but I'm doing it out of a different sense. There are a lot of reasons I choose to do this, nearly all of which taken individually or in total would be viewed by most with an open mind as altruistic, responsible and well kinda cool (it is a great conversation piece).

To be sure there are lunatics in the WVO area, just as there are in HHO, WMO, etc. all the way to Apocalypse, PA. I submit there are lunatics everywhere. Heck, even ones who drive diesels and are just as passionate about pump diesel.

Seems like anytime this topic is brought up, people who make or run on biodiesel/WVO are either wacked out tree huggers (to wit post #32) or government conspiracy folks intent on breaking the law (See the various Forced Induction posts) to just stupid morons who are ruining their cars out of their sheer ignorance (kinda implied by your post #19)

People are funny. Things either are or they are not. Like all discussions on the use of biofuels, they all end up where we are now. Endless feedback loop. Sad really. But it is the human condition afterall.

[dagObx]

Originally Posted by bgiovan

Aw Forced, c'mon you old curmudgeon. One of your key points early on in this thread was biodieselers were a bunch of law breakers bent on cheating the government from tax revenue. I pointed out the Prius and Volt driver argument to you and you spun into a discussion about fuel economy. The government picks (and subsidizes) winners and losers based on politics.

It's ok. You can be nice and say that everyone is entitled to their own opinion. One thing you did validate for me was my 90%+ posit. Thanks!

Thanks for the link about the oil producers, do yourself a favor and research the trail of petrodollars (regardless of country) and get back to us. To be sure, all the countries listed on that link (a US Government link which most certainly makes it true and credible) reads like a who's who of our friends and allies. I feel much better and stand corrected.

What it boils down to is this: people by and large are inherently lazy and refuse to accept that another valid possibility exists on anything because it challenges the norm. You can be lazy and make sh!!ty fuel. You can be lazy and drive to the station on the corner and dump in your $3.29 a gallon for D1/D2 and drive off. Or you can take the time to *properly* educate yourself and get involved in becoming self-sustained.

All the things you cite as reasons biodiesel is bad (safety, insurance, taxes, etc.) are red herrings and you know it. Those same concerns can be said for just about any activity. It's all in doing things right vs. cutting corners and being a moron.

Nothing personal on my end, just love having the discussion. Problem is you have folks who know it all and if you do not agree with them you are a moron and are flamed on boards like this.

^^^ Agreed!

People need to keep in mind that an individual can put whatever fuel into their vehicle that they choose. It's their vehicle! Unless & until someone buys my vehicles & leases them back to me & has control, what I use for fuel is my business alone. I personally would not use WVO/SVO in my car or truck, but properly produced biodiesel I will certainly use!

Since I live in NC, I don't have the worry about violating any laws, particularly if I produce bio for personal use...which is what I will be doing. I have no interest in selling it, therefore no problems with the legal eagles.

As has been noted, the price of D2 is rising - for whatever reason (it always goes up just before holidays/summer driving season). If one can take a waste produce & turn it into a productive one that doesn't break laws or put anyone else at risk, what's the problem?? If you are a purist & will only run D2, that's OK too.

Since this is a forum of ideas, as well as helpful information, let not a few di-hards (you know who you are) discourage those of us that wish to pursue other already proven fuel sources.

Originally Posted by bgiovan

Craig, I agree with you for the most part except your reference about the lunatic fringe. I consider myself pretty normal actually. I could easily afford to drive something better and roll up to the pump like everyone else but I'm doing it out of a different sense. There are a lot of reasons I choose to do this, nearly all of which taken individually or in total would be viewed by most with an open mind as altruistic, responsible and well kinda cool (it is a great conversation piece).

To be sure there are lunatics in the WVO area, just as there are in HHO, WMO, etc. all the way to Apocalypse, PA. I submit there are lunatics everywhere. Heck, even ones who drive diesels and are just as passionate about pump diesel.

Seems like anytime this topic is brought up, people who make or run on biodiesel/WVO are either wacked out tree huggers (to wit post #32) or government conspiracy folks intent on breaking the law (See the various Forced Induction posts) to just stupid morons who are ruining their cars out of their sheer ignorance (kinda implied by your post #19)

People are funny. Things either are or they are not. Like all discussions on the use of biofuels, they all end up where we are now. Endless feedback loop. Sad really. But it is the human condition afterall.

I was mostly just being a wise-ass, I've used commercial BD in my car on occasion. I do have a problem with folks using any un-taxed fuel on the road unless their law specifically allows it, and I'm not sure I would trust BD made from WO without some type of commercial grade quality control. I do think the US needs a serious effort to develop cost-competative biofuels, and I don't think that will happen until the cost of petro-fuel gets significantly higher. My SWAG is that within 10 years the cost of petro-fuel will be over $6/gal and we will all be buying a blend of petro-fuel and bio-fuel at the pump.

[benhogan]

Originally Posted by bgiovan

NC is very progressive and frankly a model for the rest of the nation. Piedmont Biofuels is a leader/trailblazer in NC. :-)

I live 10 miles from this place. I'm not sure I would trust them without some kind of quality guarantee.

I once purchased bad gasoline from a BP. It took a long while for me to compensated (repair, rental car, plus it never ran right again) because the 3 parties (BP, the trucking company, and the gas station owner) involved kept pointing fingers at each other as to who is to blame.

I am all for supporting new and local industry but the hassle of red tape and litigation is not worth it.

[strelnik]

Originally Posted by dagObx

^^^ Agreed!

People need to keep in mind that an individual can put whatever fuel into their vehicle that they choose. It's their vehicle! Unless & until someone buys my vehicles & leases them back to me & has control, what I use for fuel is my business alone. I personally would not use WVO/SVO in my car or truck, but properly produced biodiesel I will certainly use!

Since I live in NC, I don't have the worry about violating any laws, particularly if I produce bio for personal use...which is what I will be doing. I have no interest in selling it, therefore no problems with the legal eagles.
.

Exactly how I feel.

BIO is not going to fund my retirement (I have that covered with gun-running ). I just want to have the fun of making bio and using it in my vehicles.

Following the logic of some here, if I owned a forest, and made a Stanley Steamer and used wood in my boiler, I would be violating the law. BUNK! It's my Steamer, my wood, my rain water, etc etc.

Originally Posted by strelnik

Exactly how I feel.

BIO is not going to fund my retirement (I have that covered with gun-running ). I just want to have the fun of making bio and using it in my vehicles.

Following the logic of some here, if I owned a forest, and made a Stanley Steamer and used wood in my boiler, I would be violating the law. BUNK! It's my Steamer, my wood, my rain water, etc etc.

So, what is the law in MI?

[layback40]

Originally Posted by John Schroader

I submit that Forced Induction be limited to the 'Grumpy Old Diesel Owners' portion of the forum. All he lacks is age.

Forced can join if he wishes. He is in the same class as Larry Bible was.
His heart is in the right place!!
Probably some mornings he feels like he is old enough!!
He should not be limited as the where he can post!! I dont support that sort of censorship.

[bgiovan]

Definitely no censorship. People should be able to freely express their opinions without retribution from the thought police. I think the difference is when it is done with respect vs. the perpetual need to kick someone in the huevos because they dared take a contrary position.

While certainly nothing new to mankind, this sort of disrepect is pervasive in today's Fox vs. MSNBC world. I need to find the quote but I recall a story by a famous senator or congressman from the 50s & 60s saying that they could debate their counterparts vigorously then all go out for a beer afterwards because despite differences they respected each other. Seems that respect has gone.

Not an indictment on any one person (here or anywhere else), just sort of an observation. I see this in my "other job" all the time. Even guilty of it myself. But have committed in 2011 to correct the err in my ways, at least be more cognizant of it and acknowledge others when I catch myself. People need to be able to freely express themselves without having to put on the flame suit. Especially easy behind a monitor and keyboard. Everyone's an internet Chuck Norris!

[netboy]

Originally Posted by ForcedInduction

An example of one such person stealing from the government

STEALING FROM THE GOVERNMENT - did you really say that?


Given the above, you can understand why they hide. The honest people don't hide.

"Honest people don't hide", better check your history.

[layback40]

Maybe its time to start a poll ?

"Should we have a separate sub-forum for the WVO/VO/BIO guys to hang out in?

I am concerned that there are several BIO guys that are some what intolerant of the WVO/VO guys.

Some one who is a little more site literate than me could set it up!!

Dont ask me for a name for it, my suggestions would only inflame things !!