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  #1  
Old 11-24-2012, 10:01 AM
Doktor Bert's Avatar
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VVO Cost:

Back in the summer of 2005, diesel was over $5.00/gallon in Fresno. During that period of time, I could buy 5 gallon bladders of VVO from Costco for around $20.00 or so. We ran the car on 100% VVO (no modifications) all the way into February of the next year (2006) when the price of diesel dropped back down, but the cost of VVO skyrocketed. In the winter, I would add some ant-gel to the oil and I had instant starts even in Big Bear, California at less than 32°F ambient.

I found that mileage was a little better, noise was greatly reduced and power was slightly better than the oil-less 'solvent' they are selling now as #2 diesel.

At present, a 35 pound container of VVO, about 4.375 gallons, is $25.99, or about $5.94/gallon from both Costco and Smart & Final. Recently, I have seen 33.8oz containers of vegetable and corn oil on sale at Wal-Mart for $1.99/each, which works out to about $4.32/gallon, which is still more than the $4.19/gallon (Shell) or $4.05/gallon (Pilot) I am currently paying for fuel.

I actually prefer running VVO, but the cost keeps me driving to the pump. Do you think the price of VVO is simply based on the economy, or has the powers that be realized many of us were using it for fuel and not paying the applicable taxes on it????

IIRC, this was about the time that Lovecraft was generating a lot of press.

Thoughts????????????
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Did you just pass my 740 at 200 kmh in a 300SD?????

1978 300SD 'Phil' - 1,315,853 Miles And Counting - 1, 317,885 as of 12/27/2012 - 1,333,000 as of 05/10/2013, 1,337,850 as of July 15, 2013, 1,339,000 as of August 13, 2013



100,000 miles since June 2005 Overhaul - Sold January 25th, 2014 After 1,344,246 Miles & 20 Years of Ownership
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  #2  
Old 11-24-2012, 10:18 AM
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Hmmmmm......

Biodiesel to drive up the price of cooking oil - CNET News

In the article, I find the following quotation: "Martin Tobias, CEO of Seattle-based biodiesel start-up Imperium Renewables, agreed. Vegetable oil prices have declined in the past three weeks because projected demand for biodiesel has come down from the speculative levels achieved a few weeks ago. Nonetheless, lowered levels of projected demand still seem destined to make supply difficult.

"I do think there will be a crimp in vegetable oil supplies in three to five years," said Tobias, who once worked at Microsoft.

Part of the problem is the amount of oil required. It takes 7.5 pounds of oil to make one gallon of biodiesel.

And I was running it at 100% which would yield far more useable fuel per gallon, however I expect many of the Duracrax and PowerSmoke diesels wouldn't run on 100% VVO...

Tobias made this statement in closing the article: "Next year, European car manufacturers will bring to the U.S. more clean diesel cars, which produce fewer fumes than conventional diesel-engine cars. Clean diesels can also run on biodiesel, producing even fewer fumes.
"A clean diesel gets better mileage than a hybrid," he said.

Now Hybrid mileage, to me, has always been suspect, because it relies on the on-off hybrid system. Our city bought a few Prius's in 2009 and when the hybrid system went out on one of them, it was a 22mpg car.
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Did you just pass my 740 at 200 kmh in a 300SD?????

1978 300SD 'Phil' - 1,315,853 Miles And Counting - 1, 317,885 as of 12/27/2012 - 1,333,000 as of 05/10/2013, 1,337,850 as of July 15, 2013, 1,339,000 as of August 13, 2013



100,000 miles since June 2005 Overhaul - Sold January 25th, 2014 After 1,344,246 Miles & 20 Years of Ownership
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  #3  
Old 11-24-2012, 10:19 AM
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I have heard that in Northern Europe the super markets actually got fed up with crowds of diesel owners clearing their shelves! I'm not sure if it was a price hike influenced by "them" though...
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  #4  
Old 11-24-2012, 10:33 AM
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don't forget about a lot of the corn going toward the scam ethanol production instead of food production, which helped spike the price of corn, which helped spike the price of tortillas, which inspired the tortilla riots in mexico.

i don't know if any of y'all have noticed, but it's now difficult to find anything in the grocery store made from straight yellow corn. now everything is made from white corn, or a yellow corn blend. even taco bell started using white corn for their shells.
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  #5  
Old 11-24-2012, 10:48 AM
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Where it gets really interesting is when you burn used VO the price of your fuel drops two orders of magnitude, essentially free compared to the pump or grocery store. There's a forum on here dedicated to that sort or thing.

you should counteract the quiet factor of vo by advancing your timing about 5 degrees, vo has a slower flame front, and you will be missing out on power. you WANT to hear some of that familiar clatter to know you're in the zone. And at best vo is about 5% lower power potential than summer diesel but wont notice the difference under your foot in most driving conditions.
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  #6  
Old 11-24-2012, 11:46 AM
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I also used VVO before the price jumped up. I think the reason the oil price went up was the price of diesel which made transportation cost higher. When the price of diesel went down, they just left the price of vvo the same.

Paul
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  #7  
Old 11-24-2012, 11:56 AM
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Two observations:

1. I think it is well documented that the worldwide capacity to produce vegetable oils will be quickly outstripped if diesel owners were to move en masse to using it as fuel. The result would be a huge bump in VO prices that would have a serious impact on the poor in Third World nations, for whom it's a life staple. (There is a similar problem with huge-scale biodiesel production.)

2. The economic arguments to using VO in an unmodified car have to be calculated against the possibility/probability of eventual problems with the IP and injecors -- not to mention long-term polymerization of the rings, resulting in loss of compression.

There are members on this list running unmodified cars on VO but from what they write I understand they've done the calculation and figure it works out for their particular cars. Given what I know of the Doktor's car, I cannot imagine he would want to do the same.
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2002 e320 4matic estate│1985 300d│1980 300td
Previous: 1979 & 1982 & 1983 300sd │ 1982 240d

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  #8  
Old 11-24-2012, 12:05 PM
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I have used it, for almost 8 months straight at one point, and have experienced no problems because of it, only the cost of obtaining it.

I cannot imagine VO would be any worse than the oil-less solvent that CA low sulfur #2 has become for the IP and injektors, IHMO anyways....
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Did you just pass my 740 at 200 kmh in a 300SD?????

1978 300SD 'Phil' - 1,315,853 Miles And Counting - 1, 317,885 as of 12/27/2012 - 1,333,000 as of 05/10/2013, 1,337,850 as of July 15, 2013, 1,339,000 as of August 13, 2013



100,000 miles since June 2005 Overhaul - Sold January 25th, 2014 After 1,344,246 Miles & 20 Years of Ownership
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  #9  
Old 11-24-2012, 12:09 PM
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Additionally, the ring packs are tougher than you would think. Burning gas is burning gas...
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Did you just pass my 740 at 200 kmh in a 300SD?????

1978 300SD 'Phil' - 1,315,853 Miles And Counting - 1, 317,885 as of 12/27/2012 - 1,333,000 as of 05/10/2013, 1,337,850 as of July 15, 2013, 1,339,000 as of August 13, 2013



100,000 miles since June 2005 Overhaul - Sold January 25th, 2014 After 1,344,246 Miles & 20 Years of Ownership
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  #10  
Old 11-24-2012, 02:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doktor Bert View Post
Burning gas is burning gas...
Which is precisely the point. Veg oil is NOT fuel in its ambient-temperature form.

Just because something will burn in these engines, doesn't mean it's suitable for fuel. Would you burn used motor oil? Some people do.

You need vegoil to be around 180 deg F to match the viscosity of diesel, or use other methods to modify the viscosity, none of which are considered mainstream:

SVO (Straight Vegetable Oil) | BC Sustainable Energy Association

There are literally decades of research on how to use vegoil properly as fuel. Just pouring it into the tank and saying "Hey, it runs" doesn't figure in it.

Lovecraft was a prime example of Total Fail in the technology.
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2002 e320 4matic estate│1985 300d│1980 300td
Previous: 1979 & 1982 & 1983 300sd │ 1982 240d

“Let's take a drive into the middle of nowhere with a packet of Marlboro lights and talk about our lives.” ― Joseph Heller, Catch-22
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  #11  
Old 11-24-2012, 02:10 PM
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I used it as a singular furl for 8 months and would use it again without hesitation, if the price was right!!!!!
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Did you just pass my 740 at 200 kmh in a 300SD?????

1978 300SD 'Phil' - 1,315,853 Miles And Counting - 1, 317,885 as of 12/27/2012 - 1,333,000 as of 05/10/2013, 1,337,850 as of July 15, 2013, 1,339,000 as of August 13, 2013



100,000 miles since June 2005 Overhaul - Sold January 25th, 2014 After 1,344,246 Miles & 20 Years of Ownership
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  #12  
Old 11-24-2012, 04:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doktor Bert View Post
Additionally, the ring packs are tougher than you would think. Burning gas is burning gas...
Not quite. No matter the fuel, there will always be heavy ends that don't burn so well leaving carbon / gum.

The other issue with running homemade veg is that one is avoiding road use tax and that is tax evasion. ( Unless taxes are being paid to the proper agencies ) Now, some will say that they are free to drive where they want to go and I agree, just don't use roads paid for by other road users.
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  #13  
Old 11-24-2012, 04:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 97 SL320 View Post
Not quite. No matter the fuel, there will always be heavy ends that don't burn so well leaving carbon / gum.

The other issue with running homemade veg is that one is avoiding road use tax and that is tax evasion. ( Unless taxes are being paid to the proper agencies ) Now, some will say that they are free to drive where they want to go and I agree, just don't use roads paid for by other road users.
I get really tired of the road tax argument. I have a Jetta that gets 42mpg, and a 240 that gets 28mpg. I pay more road tax for my 240 than I do for my Jetta, simply because my 240 uses more fuel to go the same distance. Does my 240 do more damage to the roads than my Jetta? I highly doubt it. A completely electric vehicle pays no fuel tax, and a Prius pays even less than my Jetta in fuel tax. Why is this acceptable? A gas Jetta pays more in road taxes than a diesel Jetta, because of lower mpg's. How come this is okay? Its the exact same car with a different power plant. I'm all for the drivers paying for the use and maintenance of the roads, but basing it on fuel use really isn't the best way to do this. I also feel that the tiny percentage of people running VO or making their own Biodiesel aren't going to change the amount of money the feds and the states see in fuel tax money. Something like 1% of the passenger vehicles in the US are diesel, and I would guess that less than 1% of those are being run on VO or homebrew biodiesel. Also in many states the laws have made VO and homebrew bio exempt from fuel taxes, or have setup forms you can fill out to pay the road taxes.
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  #14  
Old 11-24-2012, 04:52 PM
85 300TD
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doktor Bert View Post

Part of the problem is the amount of oil required. It takes 7.5 pounds of oil to make one gallon of biodiesel.
What's the problem? VO weighs approx 7.64 lb/gal. So some of that gallon of biodiesel is methoxide. Seems like a good thing compared to svo.

Most bio is made of wvo, so why would demand for it make the cost of new vo rise? I would think the use of corn to make ethanol would effect the cost of oil much more.

BTW, if you want to pick up some free WVO, this is the weekend to do it! Just put an ad on Craigslist for free pick up of everyone's fried turkey oil. It's usually pretty darn clean too!!
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  #15  
Old 11-24-2012, 04:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doktor Bert View Post
Part of the problem is the amount of oil required. It takes 7.5 pounds of oil to make one gallon of biodiesel.
This stat is a little misleading. A gallon of VO weighs about 7.5 pounds. It takes one gallon of clean VO to make 1 gallon of biodiesel. Using used VO may take a little more that a gallon to make a gallon of BD due to water and other stuff in the oil.

According to the US Energy Information Administration, it takes 4.2 gallons of crude oil to make 1 gallon of diesel. Or 10 gallons of diesel from a barrel(42 gallons) of crude oil.
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