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  #106  
Old 07-30-2015, 11:41 AM
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Originally Posted by tjts1 View Post
I don't think what's happening with your engine is a lubricity issue. The pump probably just needs new seals.
I've changed the metal washers at the clear lines to no avail, so there's no point in me trying to stop the leaks coming from the top of the pump where the fuel lines connect, or the leak coming from the large bolt at the bottom of the lift pump. A 30% blend is better than nothing.

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  #107  
Old 07-30-2015, 02:58 PM
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I filled up with HPR last week at $2.69/gal. D2 was $2.85 and reg unleaded $3.30. My son took the car down the valley where there is no HPR (Fresno station too far off Hwy 99). I told him to look for B20, which is also cheap and better for the IP, but he is clueless about cars. At least w/ gas costing more than diesel he is less likely to fill-up w/ gas.
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  #108  
Old 07-31-2015, 12:40 AM
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Just filled up my '82 240d tank with 14.863g of Propel's HPR (17.2g capacity) in Arcadia, CA. 94k miles, rebuilt tranny.
My previous tank was all B20.
Very pleased overall, and this isn't the placebo effect talking.
Literally no exhaust and no smell (I was starting to worry about smoky exhaust with that last batch of B20).
She starts like a champ (best I've heard since I've owned her), and engine noise/diesel shake has gone down noticeably.
She drives more smoothly in general, and 2nd to 3rd to 4th shifts are more fluid.
Noticeable increase in power, like she no longer feels like a slow car.
And at $2.69/gallon, significantly cheaper than petrol diesel.
The car was averaging about 24mpg with B20, so I'll post an update with the mpg of this tank.
Given that you lose lubricity (relative to B20) with HPR, I also added about a quart of canola oil. We'll see how it goes.
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  #109  
Old 07-31-2015, 02:16 PM
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Originally Posted by AlabamaMan View Post
Just filled up my '82 240d tank with 14.863g of Propel's HPR (17.2g capacity) in Arcadia, CA. 94k miles, rebuilt tranny.
My previous tank was all B20.
Very pleased overall, and this isn't the placebo effect talking.
Literally no exhaust and no smell (I was starting to worry about smoky exhaust with that last batch of B20).
She starts like a champ (best I've heard since I've owned her), and engine noise/diesel shake has gone down noticeably.
She drives more smoothly in general, and 2nd to 3rd to 4th shifts are more fluid.
Noticeable increase in power, like she no longer feels like a slow car.
And at $2.69/gallon, significantly cheaper than petrol diesel.
The car was averaging about 24mpg with B20, so I'll post an update with the mpg of this tank.
Given that you lose lubricity (relative to B20) with HPR, I also added about a quart of canola oil. We'll see how it goes.
Yes, the difference in noise, vibration and smoke vs #2 is pretty remarkable. The canola oil is a good idea. I've been using a about a pint or two of soybean oil with every tank of #2 or HPR. The lubricity benefit is close to that of soy based biodiesel.
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  #110  
Old 08-04-2015, 12:11 PM
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for what its worth, i've noticed an increase in soot like deposits above the exhaust area after running HPR for a few months now. i don't know if its actual soot, but i never got similar deposits there running either b100 or b20. it looks a little like old cars running D2 look. it was easy to clean off, but i'm a little curious as to why its there
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  #111  
Old 08-05-2015, 08:54 PM
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Just reiterating my prior thumbs-up. I've been back up in the bay area for the last couple of weeks, and I've been running the HPR again. This stuff simply ROCKS!

I wish it was more readily available in other areas...
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  #112  
Old 08-06-2015, 12:04 PM
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I'm back in Fresno for a week or two and I've got another tank of HPR in my 300D. It's great fuel. I just did a diesel purge, so the engine is somewhat quieter across the board, but it runs better on HPR than #2 or B20.
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WARNING: this post may contain dangerous free thinking.
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  #113  
Old 08-06-2015, 03:25 PM
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Looks like its available all over SoCal now, not just NorCal.

76 station in Chula Vista:
$4.13 regular
$4.25 midgrade
$4.35 premium
$3.29 #2 diesel
$2.49 diesel HPR

Get the GasBuddy app and Propel Fuels app.
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  #114  
Old 08-06-2015, 03:51 PM
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Yeah, all of Propel's biodiesel pumps have been replaced in SoCal with HPR.
I was originally mad about this, until I a) did even a minuscule amount of a research and b)actually tried the product (which was priced cheaper than the last tank of B20 I bought.)

What I'm actually curious about now is how Propel is able to price a, by far, superior product cheaper than Petrol.

More specifically, how much of this relatively low cost is due to state subsidies, and how much is due to actual costs of production/NexBTL product costs?

The refining process of HFR is "hyrdrotreating", as opposed to "transesterification" which is the means by which BioD is produced. I guess I'm curious how much this product would cost without subsidies.. given the (expensive?) refining process, and given the fact Neste (corporation who produces RFD/NexBTL) produces this product in Finland and Singapore. Not in the US yet.

These are the things I think about, as pricing anomalies lead me to wonder whether this model is sustainable in the long run AND how easily and quickly production/supply could be ramped up to meet anything close to the enormous petrol diesel demand.
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  #115  
Old 08-06-2015, 11:01 PM
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Originally Posted by AlabamaMan View Post
Yeah, all of Propel's biodiesel pumps have been replaced in SoCal with HPR.
I was originally mad about this, until I a) did even a minuscule amount of a research and b)actually tried the product (which was priced cheaper than the last tank of B20 I bought.)

What I'm actually curious about now is how Propel is able to price a, by far, superior product cheaper than Petrol.

More specifically, how much of this relatively low cost is due to state subsidies, and how much is due to actual costs of production/NexBTL product costs?

The refining process of HFR is "hyrdrotreating", as opposed to "transesterification" which is the means by which BioD is produced. I guess I'm curious how much this product would cost without subsidies.. given the (expensive?) refining process, and given the fact Neste (corporation who produces RFD/NexBTL) produces this product in Finland and Singapore. Not in the US yet.

These are the things I think about, as pricing anomalies lead me to wonder whether this model is sustainable in the long run AND how easily and quickly production/supply could be ramped up to meet anything close to the enormous petrol diesel demand.
California has a law on the books called the "Low Carbon Fuels Standard" which creates a carbon offset market for the oil companies that do business in the state. For every gallon of conventional gasoline and diesel fuel they sell in the state they have to purchase an offset. The offsets can be purchased from the state or from companies that produce low carbon fuels who receive the offsets for free. This is where renewable diesel comes in. For every gallon of HPR they sell they receive an offset from the state for free which can turn around and resell to Chevron or 76 etc. The size of that offset is calculated based on the amount of carbon polution produced in the production of the fuel in Singapore and its shipment to California. The money they earn at the pump + the offset covers the cost of producing and shipping the fuel from Singapore. The offsets are worth a lot more than the price of the fuel so Propel could afford to sell the fuel for even less. In fact volume is a lot more important than price at the pump.

From the oil companies perspective, they can buy offsets from Propel for less than the state charges so its in their best interest to provide Propel with pump space at their stations in exchange for the right to purchase the offsets.

Carbon markets like this have existed in California and in Europe for years for electricity produces and busineses that produce a lot of polution, its nothing new. What is new is that its being applies to the diesel and gasoline market. With time the number of offsets available for oil companies to purchase from the state will decrease which will make them more and more expensive. You can see where this is going. Over time the price of petroleum products goes up and renewables goes down. The goal of the market is to gradually move the state from consuming high carbon fuels (petroleum) to low carbon fuels like renewable diesel, E-diesel, ethanol (ugh) electricity, hydrogen (a whole other can of worms) etc.

So the buyers of normal gasoline and diesel fuel are subsidizing renewable diesel. Keep in mind that the oil industry receives billions in subsidies from both the federal and state govs every year. The vast majority of oil in the world is produced by government run monopolies that collude with each other (OPEC) to fix prices and production quotas. It would be silly to expect renewable diesel to compete against a government subsidized and government manipulated market.
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Last edited by tjts1; 08-07-2015 at 02:35 AM.
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  #116  
Old 08-07-2015, 01:49 AM
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California has a law on the books called the "Low Carbon Fuels Standard" which creates a carbon offset market for the oil companies that do business in the state. For every gallon of conventional gasoline and diesel fuel they sell in the state they have to purchase an offset. The offsets can be purchased from the state or from companies that produce low carbon fuels who receive the offsets for free. This is where Propel comes in. For every gallon of HPR they sell they receive an offset from the state for free which can turn around and resell to Chevron or 76 etc. The size of that offset is calculated based on the amount of carbon polution produced in the production and shipment of the fuel. The money they earn at the pump + the offset covers the cost of producing and shipping the fuel from Singapore. The offsets are worth a lot more than the price of the fuel so Propel could afford to sell the fuel for even less. In fact volume is a lot more important than price at the pump.
From the oil companies perspective, they can buy offsets from Propel for less than the cost the state charges so its in their best interest to provide Propel with pump space at their stations in exchange for the right to purchase the offsets.
Carbon markets like this have existed in California for years for electricity produces and busineses that produce a lot of polution, its nothing new. What is new is that its being applies to the diesel and gasoline market. With time the number of offsets available for oil companies to purchase from the state will decrease which will make them more and more valuable. The goal of the market is to gradually move the state from consuming high carbon fuels (petroleum) to low carbon fuels like HPR.
Ah, it makes sense. I've only heard the phrase "carbon credits" thrown about, but never really understood it conceptually. I wonder if any other states have programs like this?

I guess I'm just curious as to why this isn't a bigger deal.. I mean, Big Oil, has a lot to do with it, obviously, so that's probably the answer right there.. Or maybe it's because most people don't drive (or care about) diesels. I forget that sometimes.

Is there even enough waste vegetable oil in the world to meet for production to even meet, let's say, an eighth of global diesel consumption? Rhetorical, but food for thought (unless you know the answer).

Midway through this, I found this article, which describes the market quite well:

Feedstock Importer, Renewable Diesel Exporter | Biomassmagazine.com

Looks like Neste is running at capacity (good for them), and you can only sell what you can produce. Their product is patented, so I wonder if any competitors have a comparable product...
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  #117  
Old 08-07-2015, 01:37 PM
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Solazyme is producing an identical product from algae although their production is ramping up just now.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solazyme
I think if the carbon market sticks around you'll see a lot more competitors show up. The ethanol producers in the Midwest are very unhappy with the maths behind it.
http://www.ethanolrfa.org/exchange/entry/the-california-lcfs-and-sugarcane-ethanol-wheres-the-flood/
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  #118  
Old 08-07-2015, 10:57 PM
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Does HPR have solvent like properties like BioD? Given the posts above, it appears that it does, but I haven't seen it documented anywhere.
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  #119  
Old 08-08-2015, 12:52 AM
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Originally Posted by AlabamaMan View Post
Ah, it makes sense. I've only heard the phrase "carbon credits" thrown about, but never really understood it conceptually. I wonder if any other states have programs like this?

I guess I'm just curious as to why this isn't a bigger deal.. I mean, Big Oil, has a lot to do with it, obviously, so that's probably the answer right there.. Or maybe it's because most people don't drive (or care about) diesels. I forget that sometimes.

Is there even enough waste vegetable oil in the world to meet for production to even meet, let's say, an eighth of global diesel consumption? Rhetorical, but food for thought (unless you know the answer).

Midway through this, I found this article, which describes the market quite well:

Feedstock Importer, Renewable Diesel Exporter | Biomassmagazine.com

Looks like Neste is running at capacity (good for them), and you can only sell what you can produce. Their product is patented, so I wonder if any competitors have a comparable product...
The term carbon credits is a tax on energy producers. That is just a fancy way to sell that tax, and enrich a few politicians. Who in their right mind would suggest that mining coal in WV then shipping it to China on a steam ship propelled by oil then burned there is any kind of solution to Co2 emissions?
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  #120  
Old 08-08-2015, 03:04 AM
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The term carbon credits is a tax on energy producers. That is just a fancy way to sell that tax, and enrich a few politicians. Who in their right mind would suggest that mining coal in WV then shipping it to China on a steam ship propelled by oil then burned there is any kind of solution to Co2 emissions?
Yes, its a tax on energy producers who themselves receive tax deferrals, tax exemptions, low cost or no cost leases on public lands... the list of subsidies oil, natural gas and coal producers have been receiving for the past century is a very very long one and in the process they kept politicians in their pocket with kick backs, campaign contributions and other fun little incentives to write legislation and vote their way. And now one state out of 50 has rigged the game against the oil industry and we're all supposed to be outraged?

***** please

Quote:
According to the most recent study by the Congressional Budget Office, released in 2005, capital investments like oil field leases and drilling equipment are taxed at an effective rate of 9 percent, significantly lower than the overall rate of 25 percent for businesses in general and lower than virtually any other industry.


And for many small and midsize oil companies, the tax on capital investments is so low that it is more than eliminated by var-ious credits. These companies’ returns on those investments are often higher after taxes than before.
As Oil Industry Fights a Tax, It Reaps Subsidies

Quote:
Over the past century, the federal government has pumped more than $470 billion into the oil and gas industry in the form of generous, never-expiring tax breaks. Once intended to jump-start struggling domestic drillers, these incentives have become a tidy bonus for some of the world's most profitable companies.

Taxpayers currently subsidize the oil industry by as much as $4.8 billion a year, with about half of that going to the big five oil companies—ExxonMobil, Shell, Chevron, BP, and ConocoPhillips—which get an average tax break of $3.34 on every barrel of domestic crude they produce.
http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2014/04/oil-subsidies-renewable-energy-tax-breaks

The privately owned and publicly subsidized energy companies found in the United States are the exception to the rule. As I said before, most of the world's energy is produced by government run monopolies that collude with each other to manipulate price and supply. Its impossible for any private energy company to compete in the world energy market without government support. As much as some people find subsidies and tax breaks distasteful, they are necerassy if you want a domestic energy industry that can be competitive with imports. Expecing renewable energy to compete in this environment without any subsidy is just plain silly.

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Last edited by tjts1; 08-08-2015 at 03:19 AM.
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