biodiesel - Page 2 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

TomJ · #16 06-13-2004, 12:51 PM

Quote:

"....Seems to be a little disagreement and rufled feathers over this one..."

No disagreement per se, just good conversation AFAIC! And "ruffling of feathers" needs to be done from time to time to wake people up.

RG2098: Thanks for the thread, good to see others thinking about this and looking into it as an alternative!

coachgeo · #17 06-13-2004, 01:43 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by TomJ
..
No petroleum products in ANY of the BD I've ever made. Methoxide (methanol+sodium hydroxide) and WVO/SVO do not contain ANY petroleum products of any kind or sort?....

Unless you are buying your methanol from a supplier that guarantees his stuff is not manufactured by the petroleum industry then..... it probably is a petroleum product. From what I read most non drinking alcohol production in the word is produced from a petroleum byproduct by the petroleum industry. Guess this means probably ALL of the biodiesel you have made contains a % of petroleum product.

Probably the only way to avoid petroleum-connected methanol is to buy stuff listed as "wood alcohol". Your price for methanol will triple I suspect.

For me another reason I choose not to go w/ making biodiesel. is because the closest cost effective supplier for methanol is several hundred miles away. Not worth it.

TomJ · #18 06-13-2004, 01:59 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by coachgeo
Unless you are buying your methanol from a supplier that gauruntees his stuff is not manufactured by the petroleum industry then..... it probably is a petroleum product. From what I read most non drinking alcohol production in the word is produced from a petroleum byproduct by the petroleum industry. Guess this means probably ALL of the biodiesel you have made contains a % of petroleum product.

Probably the only way to avoid petrleum connected methanol is to buy stuff listed as "wood alcohol". Your price for methanol will tripple I suspect.

For me another reason I choose not to go w/ makeing biodiesel. is because the closest cost effective supplier for methanol is several hundred miles away. Not worth it.

The methanol we procure here and in the Pac northwest is indeed organic based alchohol. Because of the petro industries existing infrastructure of making/distributing fuel, yes, they are the most cost-effective industry, but it doesn't mean that all the methanol they provide is petroleum based.

Much of the race fuel methanol is synthesized from methane, but the fact is, if you're using petroleum motor oil in your car, then saying that you don't want BD because it may have a residual of petroleum is kind of like the pot calling the kettle....

But, I don't disagree with trying to get off of our petroleum addiction.

TomJ · #19 06-13-2004, 02:00 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by coachgeo
........For me another reason I choose not to go w/ making biodiesel. is because the closest cost effective supplier for methanol is several hundred miles away. Not worth it.

If you have them deliver in bulk, it might be worth it. Or you can also use ethanol (but there are other more important uses for that in my book!)

coachgeo · #20 06-13-2004, 02:20 PM

Here is another study and again no mention of acrolein.

here is one of the educated comments on acrolein posted at the General SVO board (linked previously)

Quote:

by HCR: Incomplete combustion of glycerine does produce acrolein; that is a fact. I have no idea what quantities are produced by burning tri-, di- and mono-glycerides though. Remember that there is no significant free glycerine in svo.

Acrolein is a nasty chemical, too. It does nasty things to people. The studies I have read did not mention it as a factor to consider in the tailpipe emissions from svo, so I can't really comment further at this stage.

Tom so far it sounds like your acrolein concerns are somewhat overstated. I'm happy cause one of the reasons Im diving into this field is environmental concerns.

TomJ · #21 06-13-2004, 03:36 PM

Quote:

"...Incomplete combustion of glycerine does produce acrolein; that is a fact. I have no idea what quantities are produced by burning tri-, di- and mono-glycerides though. Remember that there is no significant free glycerine in svo....."

The glycerine is "freed" in the combustion process, you can't avoid burning it. SVO and WVO have LARGE amounts of glycerine, this is what is removed from it in the BD reaction process.

Also, this person is just one poster on one forum and most forums skirt this issue altogether (as found by both of our inability to find much on the subject) so I'd take his AND my statements with a grain of salt.

Maybe we can both dig deeper on this subject, probably even to the point of testing TP emissions of various SVO's and WVO's on a lab engine to determine the various byproducts. One thing I did read on a Univ study somewhere was coming up with an organic oil source that has low acrolein and NOx emmisions. Will try to find that.

Jimmy Joe · #22 06-13-2004, 05:23 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by TomJ
... the fact is, if you're using petroleum motor oil in your car, then saying that you don't want BD because it may have a residual of petroleum is kind of like the pot calling the kettle....

Hmmm, never did understand that oft-used line of reasoning.
That is an all or nothing justification, which just isn't valid, imho.
Sacrifices must be made in our industrial culture, if you want to drive a car at all, for all kinds of nasty things go into it's production, ect. We could easily say that if you drive a car and consider yourself an environmentalist, then you are a hypocrite. Just doesn't seem useful to me.

But I insist on limiting as much as possible my petroleum use.
And using 20 gallons of petroleum to 80 gallons of oil is not "residual," nor necessary. Good for you if you are really getting organic wood alcohol, but I just keep seeing 30 gallon drums of the petroleum crap down here.

With proper heating, oil is working great with engines.
If people choose to take shortcuts with their expensive cars, that's just their misfortune. Same thing with BD shortcuts.
Your "no matter what, oil will coke injectors" statement just does not stand up to the 100's of testimonials of long term successful veggy use, with no harmful effects.

Check out the Maui board, Biofuels, Greasel, Greasecar, ect.
They disagree entirely.

TomJ · #23 06-13-2004, 06:11 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jimmy Joe
Hmmm, never did understand that oft-used line of reasoning.
That is an all or nothing justification, which just isn't valid, imho.
Sacrifices must be made in our industrial culture, ....

Right, by this line of reasoning, you are contradicting yourself. The minimal amount of methanol used for the conversion is a "no-no", but you can use all the petroluem oils you want everywhere else? Remember, 20% is NOT the total methanol used. In a proper wash system with a methanol recovery, 20-30% of the methanol used is recovered for re-use. But you can justify the SVO/WVO use however you want.

Quote:

Originally posted by Jimmy Joe
.... With proper heating, oil is working great with engines.
If people choose to take shortcuts with their expensive cars, that's just their misfortune. Same thing with BD shortcuts.
Your "no matter what, oil will coke injectors" statement just does not stand up to the 100's of testimonials of long term successful veggy use, with no harmful effects.....

The people in this movement are not generally heavy mechanics, they are "users". People who have NOT torn engines down after long-term use and tested for failure analysis. Here's a pic of a coked injector (one of all eight that were coked) I pulled THIS WEEK from a veggie truck (~30k miles of use):

"it looks fine to me?" is the comment I get from the veggie guys who pass it off as "hey, it has 20k miles on it running SVO, what'ya expect, dude?"

Quote:

Originally posted by Jimmy Joe

Check out the Maui board, Biofuels, Greasel, Greasecar, ect.
They disagree entirely.

I have and do regularly as I also post my findings for them to use. Not ONE person who has had any real experience or in-depth knowledge of mechanics "disagrees entirely" (in fact most who understand mechanics and have experience working on grease cars agree that there WILL be coking issues and that's fine with them.) Presented with evidence, there's not much to dispute. They just accept coking problems after XX miles and that's fine with me.

DieselAddict · #24 06-13-2004, 06:39 PM

TomJ, how does the rate of coking from SVO compare to that from straight diesel? Do you have any data from your experience?

I'm a bigger fan of biodiesel than SVO myself and that was before I ever heard of acrolein. Now it seems to me that biodiesel is really the way to go.

coachgeo · #25 06-13-2004, 06:48 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by TomJ
...
... Here's a pic of a coked injector (one of all eight that were coked) I pulled THIS WEEK from a veggie truck (~30k miles of use):

Don't look fine to me but your not giving enough information. Is this a DI or IDI engine? Why were ya'll removing the injectors? Were the injectors ever inspected before the swap to WVO? How hot does he get the actual vege oil to?. Does he drive his diesel like a baby or does he tax the engine like a diesel truck is designed?

Injectors should be pulled and inspected every five to ten thousand miles at first when you convert a vehicle to WVO. This is to evaluate if the vege oil is getting hot enough to prevent coking. If no coking is found after say 40 or so thousand then up the interval of injector checking to something like every 30 thousand miles. Increased inspection intervals simular to the above should be done on cars that are using b100 thru about B50 often too, along with inspection of fuel lines.

oldnavy · #26 06-13-2004, 07:24 PM

Talked to a friend today that owns a local steak house and he said I could have all the WVO I want. He will run it through the filter machine and put it back into the 28 lb jugs the stuff comes in for me.

I had decided to give up on the WVO because I didn't want to dip it out of the waste tank, and the mess that would be for me and the wife.

He has a ribeye steak special every Thursday, buy one get one free, I told him I would be a regular Thursday visitor from now on.

TomJ · #27 06-13-2004, 11:49 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DieselAddict
TomJ, how does the rate of coking from SVO compare to that from straight diesel? Do you have any data from your experience?

I'm a bigger fan of biodiesel than SVO myself and that was before I ever heard of acrolein. Now it seems to me that biodiesel is really the way to go.

These same injectors in various other engines that run petro diesel will not look like this unless they have oil burning issues. I've pulled them at 100 and 200k and they never look like this.

This was just one example, I see it in Mercedes too after about 10-12k miles on SVO.

Biodiesel is for me, but I'm not saying to totally discount SVO and WVO, just that most people don't do what is necessary to ensure that it runs properly (like running a hokey heating system that does not heat the oil adequately - >200deg F.)

TomJ · #28 06-13-2004, 11:57 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by coachgeo
Don't look fine to me but your not giving enough information. Is this a DI or IDI engine? Why were ya'll removing the injectors? Were the injectors ever inspected before the swap to WVO? How hot does he get the actual vege oil to?. Does he drive his diesel like a baby or does he tax the engine like a diesel truck is designed?

I'm not going to give five pages of information just to prove a point, but these are Powerstroke injectors (7.3 DI) and I've pulled them from petro diesel trucks with >100k on them and they are fine (comparatively, of course, still needed O-rings though). One injector was inspected at 60k, typical smoking. This was 30k later. The truck is a work truck. It is "worked", but it does idle a lot (which admittedly could be an issue.)

Quote:

Originally posted by coachgeo
.....Injectors should be pulled and inspected every five to ten thousand miles at first when you convert a vehicle to WVO. .....

YIKES!! On a Merc, no prob, on a Powerstroke? NO WAY! This is a $600 job just to replace one injector. Truthfully, I don't think that motor is well suited to biofuels. Cummins, Perkins, even Detroits would be more forgiving I believe.

Heating does seem to be key in minimizing coking and deposits, but I'm thinking that the animal oils in most WVO plays a part in this too. SVO from virgin oil doesn't seem to have half the coking issues as WVO (but it still does have more issues than most are willing to admit - until they come to me for repairs.)

TomJ · #29 06-14-2004, 12:30 AM

BTW, just a side note for the SVO/WVO people here, found this a while back, thought it innovative and a good idea for those running just veggie:

http://ww2.green-trust.org:8383/2003/temperature/

coachgeo · #30 06-15-2004, 11:35 PM

Hey Tom,

want to say thanks for your mention of "acrolein". My (and others) environmental and health concers took a quick jump at this and have been looking for more info. Here is one of the latest that helps me breath with much less concern.

Quote:

An online resource I found stated that acrolein is indeed very toxic. But it also said that environmental exposure to it via auto exhaust is almost non-existent.

Why? Acrolein is supposedly highly reactive and does not survive long in the environment. Human exposure therefore is limitied.

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