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  #61  
Old 04-04-2005, 11:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boneheaddoctor
Well I spoke to soon about no ill effects from the B20....my rubber line back by the tank on the drivers side started seeping fuel yesterday...enough to make a 4 foot spot on the cement driveway yesterday....guess what I have to fix tonight.....the injector return lines were weeping when I bought the car....a little not a lot....I'll use regular stuff to fix the line under the car tonight.....and order some Vitron so I am ready to rock and roll if I get to processing m own BD this summer.

But to be fair those lines under the car are likely to be factory originals so 22 years is not out of line to need replacing them.

If you can get factory MB line, it should last another 20years on bio (tested a sample of the latest fuel line in B100 and no ill effect after 6 months in it.)

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Last edited by TomJ; 04-04-2005 at 12:34 PM.
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  #62  
Old 04-04-2005, 12:25 PM
boneheaddoctor's Avatar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TomJ
If you can get factory MB line, it should last another 20years on bio (tested a sample of the latest fact line in B100 and no ill effect after 6 months in it.)
I need to get another order off....I need to do the return lines....and the under car hoses.....but I also need to get a turbo install kit...so I can clean out or swap the intake manifold with one from my 300SD parts car., I am mothballing that motor for future use soon.....and put a block heater in...ad do a citric acid flush and fresh coolant. I've got some generic hose that will last me untill I get the good stuff. So its not a major rush...

I could swing by HBL Mercedes and see what they have.......and how much...its the closest dealer to me.
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  #63  
Old 04-04-2005, 12:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boneheaddoctor
Well I spoke to soon about no ill effects from the B20....my rubber line back by the tank on the drivers side started seeping fuel yesterday...enough to make a 4 foot spot on the cement driveway yesterday....guess what I have to fix tonight.....the injector return lines were weeping when I bought the car....a little not a lot....I'll use regular stuff to fix the line under the car tonight.....and order some Vitron so I am ready to rock and roll if I get to processing m own BD this summer.

But to be fair those lines under the car are likely to be factory originals so 22 years is not out of line to need replacing them.
I think that the age of the fuel line is probably more of a factor than the Bio. Last night we changed all of our return lines on the 85 to ones that are used on a 6.2 Chev dsl. The old ones had kind of a woven thread outer sheath and got soggy after only two months use (we haven't used Bio yet). The new returns from GM are all rubber and hopefully will last.
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  #64  
Old 04-04-2005, 01:28 PM
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My understanding is that since ~1998, MBZ and Volks have been using the BD100 proof fuel lines. The speculation is that if you get new line from the dealer, it is already BD resistant.
I replaced the injector overflow lines which were weeping big time with new MBZ line, and they are holding up fine.
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  #65  
Old 04-04-2005, 01:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimmy Joe
My understanding is that since ~1998, MBZ and Volks have been using the BD100 proof fuel lines. The speculation is that if you get new line from the dealer, it is already BD resistant.
I replaced the injector overflow lines which were weeping big time with new MBZ line, and they are holding up fine.
That would make it worth going to the stealership...................just for ease of ordering....well hopefully anyway they won't be old stock items....that is not resistant.
__________________
Proud owner of ....
1971 280SE W108
1979 300SD W116
1983 300D W123
1975 Ironhead Sportster chopper
1987 GMC 3/4 ton 4X4 Diesel
1989 Honda Civic (Heavily modified)
---------------------
Section 609 MVAC Certified
---------------------
"He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." - Friedrich Nietzsche
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  #66  
Old 10-24-2010, 06:28 PM
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horsesh_t! burning SVO does not produce acrolein. rubbish hearsay!
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  #67  
Old 10-24-2010, 07:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mbbilbao View Post
horsesh_t! burning SVO does not produce acrolein. rubbish hearsay!
"When glycerol is heated to 280 C, it decomposes into acrolein."

Look it up. Burning glycerin indeed produces acrolein. As much as petro? Doubtful. It degrades rapidly. People get the same when they barbecue or burn fat on a stove. SVO is 100% sustainable and viable as a fuel source for diesels with technology and design. But..., own up to the reality. Yes, it does produce miniscule amounts "unwanted's."
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=========================

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  #68  
Old 10-24-2010, 09:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rg2098 View Post
I'm looking to buy a Turbo 300D or CD to run on biodiesel. Does anybody know where I can get it in the Rochester Michigan area, or how hard is it to manufacture. I'm new to the diesel scene but not to Mercedes, I currently own a 1980 450SL. I would greatly appreciate any feedback.

Adam Lumsden
'80 Mercedes 450SL
Adam,

I think we may have a terminology problem here. Any diesel can run on biodiesel (fuel lines often need to be changed anyway), did you perhaps mean waste vegetable oil/straight vegetable WVO/SVO) when you said "conversion?" If you run on biodiesel, the only thing that needs changing is your fuel hoses and injection seals, which on an old diesel need changing anyway (flurocarbon/Viton is guaranteed good for any liquid fuel you can run in a diesel).

There are two routes for running biofuels in a diesel: Convert the car or convert the fuel. The cost for converting a diesel to run WVO/SVO ranges from $1500 (yes, you can do it for less, but the results are not satisfactory in my view) to $3500 depending on the system (single or dual tank, electronic, automatic fuel heat controls vs. manual switch over, number of heat stages prior to injection pump, etc.). The cost of building a proper biodiesel processor runs $500-$3500, depending on how much fuel you need to produce per day and chemicals and fuel storage containers you will need. Pick your poison, there are upfront costs for each. I started with one, then the other and now run the primary tank on B100 and the secondary tank on clean, dry WVO.

Biodiesel is a transesterification process - chemical conversion. WVO/SVO is just filtered and dehydrated vegetable oil, soybean is the most common, it's also usually the cheapest. It is not accurate to describe biodiesel as "vegetable oil with methanol mixed in" - it is not. Biodiesel is the end result of a chemical conversion of the free fatty acids in the vegetable oil into a different molecule, removing the glycerin that causes much of the gelling, coking and ash that can result with WVO/SVO that is not effectively pre-heated. If used vegetable oil from fryers is used (you can usually get this for free by asking the restaurant if they'd like you to haul it away for them), the oil is filtered, water is removed chemically or through flash evaporation and then converted by the transesterification into biodiesel. If you have more than 500 parts per million of water, you will have problems. Dry oil is needed for either good biodiesel conversion or for direct use as WVO/SVO - water kills the reaction and destroys injector nozzles.

When you first start out, you need to titrate your oil to determine free fatty acids. You will learn to distinguish "good oil" from bad during this time - oxidized oil is often not usable. Don't be afraid to reject oil that you can't salvage. It needs to be conveyed to whomever you have a relationship with to pick up their oil that there may be times you just can't use it. If they change oil once per week, this is seldom a problem.

Titrating also gives you a value that can determine how much Potassium Hydroxide or Sodium Hydroxide (I prefer KOH, aka Potassium Hydroxide, slower but very complete conversion if your quantities are right) you need in the methanol to form the catalyst. You can obtain chemicals from several places, everyone has their favorites. The reactor you will need can either be built (many folks go the DIY route) or you can buy a complete system for a few grand. Unless you drive quite a lot, 40 gallons of fuel a day processor sizing is probably abundant and will take up less room in a shed or garage. http://www.dudadiesel.com/ for chemicals is my favorite.

You can read up on the various methods for converting vegetable oil into a diesel fuel you can use in ANY diesel engine here: http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make.html#start
I use the two step "foolproof method" having tried the others, it works well and the results are good (titration not required, but intended for "advanced" users that are well familiar with the process). Read more here:
http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make2.html#which

You start by doing things totally manually and in a small batch. Start with a 1 liter quantity (not a gallon, that's later, keep it small). You can buy kits from Dudadiesel to start you off for the test batch cheaply. To have your batches chemically verified, Dudadiesel have a lab they can point you to to test it. Cost is about $100.00 (at least it was a few years ago) so that once you get a good batch without making soap or incomplete fuel, you can chemically verify your results against BQ9000 or ASTM D6751. There are also simple visual and chemical tests to check yourself. Read the Quality Testing section about half way down. The simplest is the check using a 1 liter bottle with water in it and observing the results of phase separation. Well processed fuel will separate with a very thin, almost invisible white line between a yellowish, transparent biodiesel top and a clear water bottom layer.
http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_vehicle.html

I won't get into WVO vehicle conversion here, it's a lengthy discussion.

Final note on obtaining vegetable oil from restaurants: ALWAYS communicate with restaurant management, even draw up a contract and read up on local laws for grease hauling and how you are in compliance. Re-assure the owner that any problems with your car that results from use of the oil you will hold the restaurant harmless, etc. Don't engage in mid-night dumpster diving, or grab oil cubes from the back alley of the restaurant - you are likely breaking the law and at least irritating the local restaurant owner. This is also a good way to create a very bad impression of folks running their vehicles on waste vegetable oil within the local community. Besides, oil dropped in dumpsters is often in a very poor state, there are better ways of doing things.

Warm regards,

-bh

Last edited by benzhacker; 10-25-2010 at 01:55 PM.
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  #69  
Old 10-25-2010, 12:04 AM
C Sean Watts's Avatar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by benzhacker View Post
Adam,

I think we may have a terminology problem here. Any diesel can run on biodiesel (fuel lines often need to be changed anyway), did you perhaps mean waste vegetable oil/straight vegetable WVO/SVO) when you said "conversion?" If you run on biodiesel, the only thing that needs changing is your fuel hoses and injection seals, which on an old diesel need changing anyway (flurocarbon/Viton is guaranteed good for any liquid fuel you can run in a diesel).

There are two routes for running biofuels in a diesel: Convert the car or convert the fuel. The cost for converting a diesel to run WVO/SVO ranges from $1500 (yes, you can do it for less, but the results are not satisfactory in my view) to $3500 depending on the system (single or dual tank, electronic, automatic fuel heat controls vs. manual switch over, number of heat stages prior to injection pump, etc.). The cost of building a proper biodiesel processor runs $500-$3500, depending on how much fuel you need to produce per day and chemicals and fuel storage containers you will need. Pick your poison, there are upfront costs for each. I started with one, then the other and now run the primary tank on B100 and the secondary tank on clean, dry WVO.

Biodiesel is a transesterification process - chemical conversion. WVO/SVO is just filtered and dehydrated vegetable oil soybean is the most common, it's the cheapest). It is not accurate to describe biodiesel as "vegetable oil with methanol mixed in" - it is not. Biodiesel is the end result of a chemical conversion of the free fatty acids in the vegetable oil into a different molecule, removing the glycerin that causes much of the gelling, coking and ash that can result with WVO/SVO that is not pre-heated. If used vegetable oil from fryers is used (you can usually get this for free by asking the restaurant if they'd like you to haul it away for them), the oil is filtered, water is removed chemically or through flash evaporation and then converted by transesterification. If you have more than 500 parts per million of water, you will have problems. Dry oil is needed for either good biodiesel conversion or for direct use as WVO/SVO - water kills the reaction and destroys injector nozzles.

When you first start out, you need to titrate your oil to determine free fatty acids. You will learn to distinguish "good oil" from bad during this time - oxidized oil is often not usable. Don't be afraid to reject oil that you can't salvage. It needs to be conveyed to whomever you have a relationship with to pick up their oil that there may be times you just can't use it. If they change oil once per week, this is seldom a problem.

Titrating also gives you a value that can determine how much Potassium Hyrdoxide or Sodium Hydroxide (I prefer KOH, aka Potassium hydroxide, slower but very complete conversion if your quantities are right) you need in the methanol to form the catalyst. You can obtain chemicals from several places, everyone has their favorites. The reactor you will need can either be built (many folks build them) or you can buy a complete system for a few grand. Unless you drive quite a lot, 40 gallons of fuel a day processor sizing is probably abundant and will take up less room in a shed or garage. http://www.dudadiesel.com/ for chemicals is my favorite.

You can read up on the various methods for converting vegetable oil into a diesel fuel you can use in ANY diesel engine here: http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make.html#start
I use the two step "foolproof method" having tried the others, it works well and the results are good (titration not required, but intended for "advanced" users that are well familiar with the process). Read more here:
http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make2.html#which

You start by doing things totally manually and in a small batch. Start with a 1 liter quantity (not a gallon, that's later, keep it small). You can buy kits from Dudadiesel to start you off for the test batch cheaply. To have your batches chemically verified, Dudadiesel have a lab they can point you to to test it. Cost is about $100.00 (at least it was a few years ago) so that once you get a good batch without making soap or incomplete fuel, you can chemically verify your results against BQ9000 or ASTM D6751. There are also simple visual and chemical tests to check yourself. Read the Quality Testing section about half way down.
http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_vehicle.html

I won't get into WVO vehicle conversion here, it's a lengthy discussion.

Final note on obtaining vegetable oil from restaurants: ALWAYS communicate with restaurant management, even draw up a contract and read up on local laws for grease hauling and how you are in compliance. Re-assure the owner that any problems with your car that results from use of the oil you will hold the restaurant harmless, etc. Don't engage in mid-night dumpster diving, or grab oil cubes from the back alley of the restaurant - you are likely breaking the law and at least irritating the local restaurant owner. Oil dropped in dumpsters is often in a very poor state, there are better ways.

Warm regards,

-bh
Well stated clarification - with one caveat. Most diesels can run on bio diesel. Common rail systems are temperamental, to say the least. I know there are updates nearly weekly but lots of common rail systems are rated for 'up to B5' or no more than 5% bio content and ZERO svo/wvo. Someone did post what Love***** did to an E320 CDI, their denial of any wrongdoing (and all the hilarity that ensued.)
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  #70  
Old 10-25-2010, 04:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by C Sean Watts View Post
Well stated clarification - with one caveat. Most diesels can run on bio diesel. Common rail systems are temperamental, to say the least. I know there are updates nearly weekly but lots of common rail systems are rated for 'up to B5' or no more than 5% bio content and ZERO svo/wvo. Someone did post what Love***** did to an E320 CDI, their denial of any wrongdoing (and all the hilarity that ensued.)
C Sean Watts,

Yes, I'm acquainted with both this tale of woe you mention and many others. There have been attempts by car companies to derail the biodiesel use by customers using everything up to and including declaring that your warranty "may" be voided if you use any biodiesel fuel beyond B5. Why B5? Speculation continues, but the fact that many #2 blends may already contain up to 5% biodiesel (hovering at between 1-3% with great regularity) could put the car manufacturer in a particularly bad position legally speaking.

The Germans have probably poured more energy and time into assessing risks with biodiesel up to 100% in the last few years. I find it strange that the same Bosch common rail high pressure system fitted to one car from one manufacturer makes reference to one Bxx percentage and another manufacturer using the same system may refer to yet another, even if the average is B5. It's my view this is pure risk avoidance for dealing with potential lawsuits and warranty claims.

What kills injectors and engines in general seems to be water content in the fuel. In point of fact, there is no legal precedent that I am aware of in which a single vehicle has had it's warranty voided by use of biodiesel fuel. If you buy fuel from a reputable refiner that meets the requisite fuel quality standards applicable to the domicile (country-level jurisdiction usually). Whether there has ever been a successful voiding attempt for home-brew biodiesel or not, I certainly haven't heard of one, and I've been looking.

I'm aware of several common rail systems that have used B100 with great success. Provided oil is changed regularly (extended drain oil is a fallacy in my opinion, you can only suspect so much junk, neutralize so much acid in the oil), water separating fuel filters are used (and not ignored) and the fuel itself is largely free of water, it should work out. Over the last few years, a number of scandals involving big name producers showed their fuel failed to meet the ASTM and BQ9000 standards. Excess water, glycerin, methanol, you name it. While the trend is improving, there is no guarantee that fuel you buy meets the standard unless you test it. A home brewer that gets past the learning curve often has fuel that exceeds the standards, perhaps in part because they are making smaller amounts and are running it in their own cars (eating your own dogfood) while commercial producers are battling fluctuating production costs and the temptation is always there to let fuel go that is sub-standard to stay in the black.

I have choices in my area for full suppliers and both a very active QC program that re-tests fuel throughout the cycle and up to and including in the dispenser storage tanks. I watched them pump out a 2000 gallon tank that didn't conform to standard. While the above ground tanks were being rinsed out the manager of the station was screaming on the phone at the producer who delivered it that they had 12 hours to replace the delivery (or else?). They got the tanker shipment in within 6 hours authorized to supply them with 50% more fuel then they had to have hauled off.

Everyone who has a diesel has gotten a bad tank of fuel once or twice. I picked up a tank infection that took days to kill with antibacterial treatment after draining and flushing the tank. Bad fuel is certainly not isolated to biodiesel producers and well less well published, I'd be willing to bet one bad gallon of biodiesel is produced for every 1000 bad gallons of #2, not counting fuel that has been subsequently contaminated in storage or transit.

The simplest way to keep everything in good tack is find good fuel vendors and stick with them. When in doubt test regularly, particularly if you are responsible for a vehicle fleet (regardless if you run biodiesel or not).

-bh

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