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Replacing W115 Rocker Panels: Spot Weld or Adhesive?
My 240 is in the body shop getting the usual rust tended to and some fresh paint. I'm quite sure that most of the rusting was the result of some idiots creating their own jack points.
The bulk of the work, then, is replacing the rocker panels. I'm torn between two schools of thought about how they should be installed. 1. Use the tried and true spot weld method. 2. Go with a no-weld adhesive. The body guy is leaning towards adhesive because he's confident that it's the least likely to rust in the future. His rationale is that even welding grade primer melts off during the weld and won't prevent weld seam rust. Also, once weld in place, it's nearly impossible to coat the entire inside of the panel. He also pointed out that he had one heck of a time getting the front fenders removed. If the adhesive holds up half as well the glue holding the fenders in place, then the no-weld approach should be plenty stout enough to lasts for however many decades the car has ahead of it. I do like welding because it's a known quantity and I've no first hand experience with the glue 'n go method. But given that even airplanes are assembled with epoxies these days, I'm willing to let him save me some money in labor and use the goo. Anyone have any experience or recommendations either way?
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1974 240D "Boldie" 170K.- New timing chain/freshly rebuilt IP/replaced valve seals/injectors/upgraded stereo/new Bilsteins with Yokohamas/fresh paint and rocker panels plus lots of welds. |
#2
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I've used this stuff to bond quarter panels. 3M 8115 adhesive with good results with minimal spot welding while wet. The glue is very tough once cured. I think it would be a good solution to your rocker panel.
Here is some interesting threads about Glue vs Welding all by the same poster. Welding or Bolting vs gluing panels on, a science project Follow up peel test on Welds vs Glue. Real world test on panel adhesives. .
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1983 123.133 California - GreaseCar Veg System Last edited by DeliveryValve; 10-09-2011 at 11:49 AM. |
#3
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Quote:
My worry about gluing on top of paint - if that is part of the plan? - would be that the strength of the bond is then compromised by the strength of the paint sticking to the metal... I think a well kept but used(!) car with conventional spot welding and seam sealed treatment would last for a long time time - 20 plus years. How much longer must your car last? Thanks to DeliveryValve for the glue links though - interesting option.
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1992 W201 190E 1.8 171,000 km - Daily driver 1981 W123 300D ~ 100,000 miles / 160,000 km - project car stripped to the bone 1965 Land Rover Series 2a Station Wagon CIS recovery therapy! 1961 Volvo PV544 Bare metal rat rod-ish thing I'm here to chat about cars and to help others - I'm not here "to always be right" like an internet warrior Don't leave that there - I'll take it to bits! |
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Quote:
Quote:
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1983 123.133 California - GreaseCar Veg System |
#5
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If you need to pretty much rust proof an enclose area ..... FluidFilm is sold in the states by farm supply and tractor dealers for that kind of thing..
Pretty much pure lanolin... spray through small holes into fixed area and seal the holes....
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1980 240d , chain elongation, cam marks reference: http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/diesel-discussion/10414-help-i-need-check-stretch.html http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/diesel-discussion/305365-9-degrees-chain-stretch.html evap fin cleaning: http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/diesel-discussion/156207-photo-step-step-post-showing-w123-evaporator-removal-1983-240d-1982-300td.html?highlight=evaporator A/C thread http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/diesel-discussion/297462-c-recommendations-mb-vehicles.html |
#6
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Quote:
Fluid Film® | Corrosion Preventative, Lubricant and Rust Inhibitor
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My occupational hazard bein' my occupation's just not around... 1980 300SD 1980 300SD |
#7
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do you have photos of the panels that need bonding? I've got a car nearly completely stripped down, and could offer some insight if you are in doubt.
welding has certain strengths and some weaknesses... fire from the undercoating is a possibility that does not exist with epoxies...
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John HAUL AWAY, OR CRUSHED CARS!!! HELP ME keep the cars out of the crusher! A/C Thread "as I ride with my a/c on... I have fond memories of sweaty oily saturdays and spewing R12 into the air. THANKS for all you do! My drivers: 1987 190D 2.5Turbo 1987 190D 2.5Turbo 1987 190D 2.5-5SPEED!!! 1987 300TD 1987 300TD 1994GMC 2500 6.5Turbo truck... I had to put the ladder somewhere! |
#8
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Was the same stuff used earlier on the W114 / W115s?
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1992 W201 190E 1.8 171,000 km - Daily driver 1981 W123 300D ~ 100,000 miles / 160,000 km - project car stripped to the bone 1965 Land Rover Series 2a Station Wagon CIS recovery therapy! 1961 Volvo PV544 Bare metal rat rod-ish thing I'm here to chat about cars and to help others - I'm not here "to always be right" like an internet warrior Don't leave that there - I'll take it to bits! |
#9
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I'd say it is most definitely a structural component. Removal of the floor or the roof will bust that egg shell in two (or three or four!)
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1992 W201 190E 1.8 171,000 km - Daily driver 1981 W123 300D ~ 100,000 miles / 160,000 km - project car stripped to the bone 1965 Land Rover Series 2a Station Wagon CIS recovery therapy! 1961 Volvo PV544 Bare metal rat rod-ish thing I'm here to chat about cars and to help others - I'm not here "to always be right" like an internet warrior Don't leave that there - I'll take it to bits! |
#10
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Rockers structural?
Actually I would be surprised if the outer rocker panels were considered as structural on a w115 or w123.
As far as I know, on most cars they are not. For example, rockers are the one area where many bodyshops will still fabricate repair sections as they can use thin metal stock to do so.
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Mac 2002 e320 4matic estate│1985 300d│1980 300td Previous: 1979 & 1982 & 1983 300sd │ 1982 240d “Let's take a drive into the middle of nowhere with a packet of Marlboro lights and talk about our lives.” ― Joseph Heller, Catch-22 |
#11
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when in doubt replicate what the factory did, weld it. The rockers may not be "structural" in the strictest form, I would argue they are, but they sure do add significant strength to the rigidity of the vehicle over all. Bonding adhesives are fantastic and I don't doubt that they would work but you cant go wrong with welds. if your concerned about rust creeping in over the next 40 years, keep the car maintained and clean, that will help slow the re-rusting process.
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#12
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Thanks for the advice, folks.
It never occurred to me that perhaps the rockers could add anything structurally. The raw replacement panels seem quite flimsy and the actual frame is hidden beneath, so one could be excused for ignoring what impact, if any, they have on rigidity. I'll talk it over again with the body dude. I'd not have dwelled on it if this were a '77 or newer 240. But given the scarcity of W115 parts now, I shudder to think at the effort and expense of sourcing body panels in 15-20 years. I'd like to do the best thing now to extend this quasi restore out to benefit not only myself, but any future owners as well.
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1974 240D "Boldie" 170K.- New timing chain/freshly rebuilt IP/replaced valve seals/injectors/upgraded stereo/new Bilsteins with Yokohamas/fresh paint and rocker panels plus lots of welds. |
#13
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So far I've identified slightly thicker steel plates on the front of the W123 down the side of the car behind the front wings / fenders just below those horrible rot prone bonnet / hood spring pockets. The rest of the body structure from the fire wall back seems to me to be of the same gauge (thickness) steel. (Even the long beam that the differential is bolted on - but I'll check that) Only at the front can I find real thick "reinforced" bits such as the two beams that hold on the lower cross member for the engine mounts, and the two little out rigger bits that lots of people recommend as lifting points instead of the more flimsy looking jacking holes in the rockers... oh yes and some almost after thought add-ons for the gear box mounting points! My point being? Compared to a 1950s ladder chassis it all looks like it will bend by the time it reaches the first corner!
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1992 W201 190E 1.8 171,000 km - Daily driver 1981 W123 300D ~ 100,000 miles / 160,000 km - project car stripped to the bone 1965 Land Rover Series 2a Station Wagon CIS recovery therapy! 1961 Volvo PV544 Bare metal rat rod-ish thing I'm here to chat about cars and to help others - I'm not here "to always be right" like an internet warrior Don't leave that there - I'll take it to bits! |
#14
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I've seen those panel adhesives work very well for that kind of repair. As for concerns about strength, I'd put them to bed. Thats some strong stuff!
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'82 300SD - Somewhere over 220k - Becoming reliable... |
#15
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I've used fiberglass repairs--very successfully--in rocker panels and floorboards. It helps prevent further rust, and I never had issues with them failing. I just used multiple layers of fiberglass cloth to build up strength.
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___________________________________________ 2010 Toyota matrix '93 500 SEL A bad addiction. Takes all of my cash. '12 Volvo S80 T6 Needed something that wasn't as hard to deal with as my bad addiction '18 Mazda Miata No more boring cars for everyday transport! |
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