Parts Catalog Accessories Catalog How To Articles Tech Forums
Call Pelican Parts at 888-280-7799
Shopping Cart Cart | Project List | Order Status | Help



Go Back   PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum > Do It Yourself Links & Resources > Bodywork - Repair, Paint, Tools, Tips & Tricks

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 07-21-2003, 08:24 PM
Admiral-Third World Fleet
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Central FL
Posts: 3,069
Alternative to MIG Welding (?)

I just bought a product that may be of interest to those of you (us) with a need to fix floorboards or do some other metal repair. It is called FUSOR 108B Metal Panel Bonding Adhesive that is used in the "trade" to attach body panels such as rear quarters, doorskins etc. I paid about $25 for a 7.6 oz two-part tube of the stuff and I experimented with an irregularly shaped patch of new steel for the floor of my 240D ( corner where the rocker and firewall meet under the clutch pedal).

This stuff meets GM and DaimlerChrysler specs for mig welding and weld bonding - has a lap shear strength of 2250 psi when used on steel.

It mixes much like thin Bondo and smells not unlike the stuff dentists use when setting crowns. In 90+ degree heat it sets up in about 10 minutes but is supposed to allow 40-50 minutes work time at 70 degrees. I don't think I could have patched that inacessable corner nearly as well with a MIG. Another advantage is that is is not supposed to promote corrosion at the bond.

It stayed put today on the ride to work ( I didn't use any rivets or screws) If it lasts I may be tempted to slap a different quarter panel on the car later this year. Additional info is at www.fusor.com. There are probably similar products out there made by 3M etc.

Rick

__________________
80 300SD (129k mi) 82 240D stick (193k mi)77 240D auto - stick to be (153k mi) 85 380SL (145k mi) 89 BMW 535i 82 Diesel Rabbit Pickup (374k mi) 91 Jetta IDI Diesel (155k mi) 81 VW Rabbit Convertible Diesel 70 Triumph Spitfire Mk III (63kmi)66 Triumph TR4a IRS (90k mi)67 Ford F-100 (??)
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 07-22-2003, 12:23 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Evansville, Indiana
Posts: 8,150
Chemical bonding of metal was required in the Lockheed L1011 aircraft (and probably everything newer than that), and there is no reason to assume it won't work on auto steel.

My only concern would be fill strength -- is the stuff as hard and strong as it needs to be if there is a large, irregular gap rather than just a thin space between the sheets.

Peter
__________________
1972 220D ?? miles
1988 300E 200,012
1987 300D Turbo killed 9/25/07, 275,000 miles
1985 Volvo 740 GLE Turobodiesel 218,000
1972 280 SE 4.5 165, 000 - It runs!
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 07-22-2003, 06:39 AM
Admiral-Third World Fleet
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Central FL
Posts: 3,069
Peter-
Good point. I have several spots on this patch that are about 1/4" thick. Of course, this isn't a structural application so I would expect it to hold reasonably well . The product instructions want you to apply a 3/8" think bead of the material.

Rick
__________________
80 300SD (129k mi) 82 240D stick (193k mi)77 240D auto - stick to be (153k mi) 85 380SL (145k mi) 89 BMW 535i 82 Diesel Rabbit Pickup (374k mi) 91 Jetta IDI Diesel (155k mi) 81 VW Rabbit Convertible Diesel 70 Triumph Spitfire Mk III (63kmi)66 Triumph TR4a IRS (90k mi)67 Ford F-100 (??)
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 09-09-2004, 08:24 AM
MB, love..hate..love..
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: NB Canada
Posts: 1,173
I'm posting a new thread in the detailing section, regarding 3 available types of this no-weld adhesive.
No weld panel adhesives - discussion and ??
I'd be very interested in the results of your repairs 1 year later?
__________________
1986 560SL
2002 Toyota Camry
1993 Lexus

Last edited by donbryce; 09-09-2004 at 08:44 AM. Reason: Add link to another thread
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 09-09-2004, 09:01 AM
nglitz's Avatar
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Hamilton Square NJ, near Trenton
Posts: 391
Quote:
This stuff meets GM and DaimlerChrysler specs for mig welding and weld bonding
I think you're getting a few terms mixed up. This is a two-part adhesive. It has nothing to do with welding. "Welding" is the joining of two materials (metals) by melting them together. There may be a filler used, as in mig (GMAW) welding, but at least one of the parent materials has to be melted to be a weld.

The "weld bonding" referred to above is a combintaion technique using resistance welding (melts the parent metal) with adhesive bonding in between the welds. Even the fusor site has a technique page describing it.

This stuff may well be a very good adhesive and hold patch panels in place perfectly well, but in no way is it "welding".

Bonding,
__________________
Norm in NJ
Next oil change at 230,000miles
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 09-09-2004, 12:22 PM
Banned
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Varies
Posts: 4,802
If you can say MIG you can learn to MIG weld in about 20 minutes. MIG equipment is cheap. Why would you want an alternative?

If you are contemplating rust repairs, I am against it, buy a car with no rust.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 09-09-2004, 01:26 PM
MB, love..hate..love..
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: NB Canada
Posts: 1,173
Quote:
MIG equipment is cheap. Why would you want an alternative?
How can you compare the cost of a Mig welder, plus gas and wire, to the price of a tube of this adhesive, in the case where the owner simply wants to do a few small cosmetic repairs? I've known lots of people with rusty wheel arches, floors, outer rocker panels, door corners/bottoms, etc., that had to get a bodyshop to weld in the pieces for them because they didn't have the equipment to do it themselves. Many folks don't want to invest a lot of money in bodyshop work, or equipment either, for these small jobs, but want to do it themselves and achieve something better quality than pop rivets and kittyhair.
Also, if the repair is adjacent to gas lines, interior cloth, undercoat, etc., basically, in areas where fire is a real danger from the heat and sparks from mig welding, or in places that it's a real pain to weld, this type of product is a great alternative.
__________________
1986 560SL
2002 Toyota Camry
1993 Lexus
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 09-09-2004, 05:47 PM
Banned
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Varies
Posts: 4,802
I think you are talking about an alternative to MarineTex and not an alternative to MIG welding. I can see the value in high tech adhesives, the different technologies have their respective places.

Grumman light aircraft also had bonded skin, makes a more aerodynamically clean surface than rivets.

Some plastic body panels on cars are glued on too. The Fiero was one example and I think Saturn is another.

MIG welding is cheaper than most people believe, you can get a small flux core setup for $100 or so. It is not the answer to all of your welding needs but is really pretty versatile with a little practice and study.

Weld strength with a MIG welder varies but can be as high as 80,000 psi or higher.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 09-09-2004, 08:56 PM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Canton,Texas
Posts: 987
I think that's the same stuff that's recommended to repair the cracks in front of the doors (kind of behind the fenders) on the early 90's Dodge trucks.... I think rivets are also used there because it's a high stress area on those trucks (bad design). Anyway, back to the point of my story, it's supposed to be really good stuff.
__________________
1985 300D Turbo ~225k
2000 F350 (Powerstroke) 4X4, SWB, CC, SRW, 6spd ~148k
1999 International 4900, DT466e (250hp/660 ft/lbs), Allison MD3060 ~73k
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 09-09-2004, 11:47 PM
Admiral-Third World Fleet
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Central FL
Posts: 3,069
donbryce-

The patch on the floor is holding just fine.

I did more experimentation a few weeks later.

I had a smallish hole starting at the bottom corner of the right rear quarterpanel. A hole about the size of a silver dollar. I constructed a patch using three or four small pieces to mimic the car's construction. One flat below, one inside the wheel well at the back, one bent and curving along the outside fender and one that curves around like the lip of the rear fender. Not a big patch but a complex one . I glued it all together and added just a touch of kitty hair. And it has held just fine for a year. No screws or rivets.

I haven't gotten around to the big quarterpanel patch but I see no reason not to do it with this stuff ( I will add a few sheet metal screws, though)
Rick
__________________
80 300SD (129k mi) 82 240D stick (193k mi)77 240D auto - stick to be (153k mi) 85 380SL (145k mi) 89 BMW 535i 82 Diesel Rabbit Pickup (374k mi) 91 Jetta IDI Diesel (155k mi) 81 VW Rabbit Convertible Diesel 70 Triumph Spitfire Mk III (63kmi)66 Triumph TR4a IRS (90k mi)67 Ford F-100 (??)
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 09-10-2004, 01:54 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: oregon
Posts: 2,013
Mig welders are cheap? going to get one in a couple of weeks 135 Lincoln out the door with full tank but no wire is over seven hundred dollars.The small cheapo flux core wire welders are near worthless..........

William Rogers.............
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 09-10-2004, 08:05 AM
MB, love..hate..love..
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: NB Canada
Posts: 1,173
I've been migging in my home shop for over 20 years. My welder was $350.00 CDN, bought as a sale promo item locally, but is available in the U.S. from Kooltools (an excellent co., sent me a replacement motor once) http://www.kooltools.com/welding/110mig_weld.html ,and I got a tank at an auction for $50.00, which has long since been traded for a filled tank at the local exchange-empty-take-full depot. Mig gas, an argon/co2 mix I believe, runs about $40.00 plus tax for a B size tank. A large spool of .035" wire is around $35.00 CDN. I consider this setup by far the cheapest I could ever get in this area, for a proper wire fed gas mig welder.
Quote:
....you can get a small flux core setup for $100 or so.
I envy your access to inexpensive equipment. Care to share the source of a $100.00 Mig? Even the cheapest flux core setup here will set you back over $400.00 CDN. I tried using one of those, a Lincoln, which a buddy had, and I had no trouble with thicker steel, around 1/16" or greater, but it had a tendency to burn through sheet stock, like body metal. I figure that the heat level required to vaporize the flux in the core is higher than the melting temperature of the thin steel. And, the price of the flux cored wire is much higher than standard carbon steel.
__________________
1986 560SL
2002 Toyota Camry
1993 Lexus
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 09-10-2004, 08:07 AM
Banned
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Varies
Posts: 4,802
Quote:
Originally Posted by william rogers
The small cheapo flux core wire welders are near worthless..........

William Rogers.............
That is a big conclusion with no support. I have two MIG welders, one with gas and one flux core cheapo. Flux is great for portability and quick repairs. The gas welder is more powerful and more adjustable and is better on almost everything with the exception of windy conditions.

On a unibody car the strength, the structure of the car is in the body panels. A rusty car can be demolished in a relatively minor crash and not protect its occupants as it was designed to do. Floorpans are a major structural component in a unibody car and repair by any means other than welding is inadequate. Fastening metal to metal is best done by welding.

Rust in cars fits the tip of the iceberg model. You patch the rust you can see but the rust you can't see can get you killed in an accident.

I am sure you are touting a good product and it has its applications, but keep it in its place.

Also be aware that pop rivets are not structural fasteners.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 09-10-2004, 09:25 AM
Admiral-Third World Fleet
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Central FL
Posts: 3,069
Twitchkitty

I agree that MIG welding is the thing for structural repairs. The hole I patched in my floor is directly under my clutch pedal ( I think caused by the PO letting brake fluid get down there)about the size of a spread hand. That's all the rust there is. Its a triangular area bounded by the rocker panel assy and the "frame" member inboard about 6". For something like this, I'll bet structral integrity is not compromised.

I'm just offering this as an alternative. I have a MIG welder myself but this is just too easy for nits like this. For sheet metal like the quarter panel patch it simply couldn't be done with a MIG. And I think there will be less chance of corrosion.

Rick
__________________
80 300SD (129k mi) 82 240D stick (193k mi)77 240D auto - stick to be (153k mi) 85 380SL (145k mi) 89 BMW 535i 82 Diesel Rabbit Pickup (374k mi) 91 Jetta IDI Diesel (155k mi) 81 VW Rabbit Convertible Diesel 70 Triumph Spitfire Mk III (63kmi)66 Triumph TR4a IRS (90k mi)67 Ford F-100 (??)
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 09-10-2004, 09:25 AM
BoostnBenz's Avatar
Benötigt Mehr Druck!
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,855
I think harborfreight.com sells the cheap flux cored for around $130 or something like that. I have a Hobart 125 MIG welder that I've been pretty happy with, cost a little under $500 with tank and wire. Hobart is an off branch of Miller, it actually uses a Miller gun on it.

__________________
Jeff M.
Mercedes W123 DIY pages are now located here.
1983 / 1984 300D Sold
2000 CLK430 Cabriolet ~58k Sold
2005 Avalanche 4x4 ~66k
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On




All times are GMT -4. The time now is 06:26 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2024 Pelican Parts, LLC - Posts may be archived for display on the Peach Parts or Pelican Parts Website -    DMCA Registered Agent Contact Page