Parts Catalog Accessories Catalog How To Articles Tech Forums
Call Pelican Parts at 888-280-7799
Shopping Cart Cart | Project List | Order Status | Help




Go Back   PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum > Do It Yourself Links & Resources > Bodywork - Repair, Paint, Tools, Tips & Tricks

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 12-14-2005, 11:11 AM
whunter's Avatar
Moderator
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Metro Detroit, Michigan
Posts: 17,357
Exclamation Welding the wrong metals can kill you

SAFETY - III : A Case study
Death by Metal Fume Fever
Posthumous Demonstration by Jim Paw-Paw Wilson
http://www.pawpawsforge.com
May 13, 2005
http://www.anvilfire.com/iForge/tutor/safety3/


Please do NOT become a statistic.
The dangers in welding, cutting, heating and grinding should never be underestimated.
This does not happen as often as in the past, but needs to be brought to the attention of new DIY, and younger members.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxyacetylene

http://www.oxarc.com/welding_safety_guide.ydev

Welding Safety on the Farm
http://www.umext.maine.edu/onlinepubs/htmpubs/farmseries/2320.htm

http://www.afscme.org/health/faq-weld.htm

http://www.usq.edu.au/faculty/arts/SAFETY/SWP/swp0391.htm

http://agsci.oregonstate.edu/research/FST_manual/02-07.pdf

http://www.cdc.gov/nasd/docs/d000801-d000900/d000873/d000873.html

http://publicsafety.tufts.edu/firemarshal/contractors/weld.html

http://publicsafety.tufts.edu/firemarshal/contractors/weld.html

http://www.occupationalhazards.com/safety_zones/45/article.php?id=4407

http://maco.cog.mt.us/workerscomp&safety/SafeWelding.htm

http://www.key-to-metals.com/Article29.htm

http://www.worksafe.nt.gov.au//corporate/bulletins/pdf/11-15/15.04.11.pdf

http://www.worksafe.nt.gov.au//corporate/bulletins/pdf/11-15/15.04.11.pdf


grinding toxic fumes
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=grinding+toxic+fumes&btnG=Search

grinding operation toxic fumes
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=grinding+operation+toxic+fumes&btnG=Search

welding caused dust explosion
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=welding+caused+dust+explosion+&btnG=Search

Welding Explosion and burns
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=Welding.+Explosion+and+burns+&btnG=Search

welding in garage caused home fire
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=welding+in+garage+caused+home+fire&btnG=Search

Last edited by whunter; 09-15-2009 at 09:23 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 12-14-2005, 01:54 PM
phidauex's Avatar
BioDiesel Hopeful
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: St. Louis, MO
Posts: 806
Also, remember that most of your time spend 'welding' is actually spent grinding. Using the angle grinder to shape metal, using the wire brush head to clean metal, using the sanding head to smooth welds, etc, and that the noise from that can be very dangerous and uncomfortable.

I always wear a full face shield, the visor that comes down over your whole face, and full ear protection. They are basic and inexpensive, but very effective. The visor is better than goggles, because it keeps particles out of your nose and mouth and hair, and the ear protection keeps you hearing for years to come.

Also, recall the studies that Mercedes did a long time ago that guided their design choices, the greatest factor in driver fatigue is noise, and the same is true when you are working with a welder and grinder.

If I don't wear the ear protection, I'm worn out after just a little while, but with the ear protection, I can go all day without getting tired (and have, on many occasions). Seriously, it makes a bigger difference than people realize in your comfort!

Thanks for the safety reminders, whunter.

peace,
sam
__________________
"That f***in' biodiesel is makin' me hungry."

1982 300TD Astral Silver w/ 250k (BIO BNZ)
2001 Aprilia SR50 Corsa Red w/ 5.5k (>100 MPG)

Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 12-14-2005, 03:01 PM
whunter's Avatar
Moderator
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Metro Detroit, Michigan
Posts: 17,357
barry123400

barry123400
Registered User Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Nova Scotia, Canada.
Posts: 753

For those that did not know again this is good information. The thing you run across in cars is galvanized steel and other propietary metal coatings. If your not positive what your welding on ask somebody or check. You do not want to weld on this stuff anyways as the weld can be so contaminated that it has no strength mind the safety hazzard. Anytime the arc is doing something unusual like going off colour or making excess smoke you are getting an important clue that something is unusual. That said the benifits of proper application of welding technoligy are enourmous. With care and understanding you can do work at home that is not substandard and not a safety risk. Plus since you do not weld all day for a living you are not undergoing long heavy exposure as even the byproducts of normal welding are not particularily good for you. Just my two cents worth. Would never be without my welders, plazma cutter etc. Come to think of it another liability of working on our cars is the fire risk.Just think before you apply a weld to an area is really about all it takes. Plus have a really good fire extinguisher handy. I prefer the larger halon units as there is no after residue (white powder) but not able to get refils now. Think the stuff attacked the ozone layer. But it was good.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 12-14-2005, 10:53 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Concord, MA
Posts: 603
Good Info.....how about those exhaust valves!!!!

Very useful information. Iron, regular steel are not that hazardous, but as you said, other metals are more hazardous. Metal fume fever is caused by repeated long term highe exposue to many welding metals. The average DIYer is not really at risk of this. Of greater concern, as you said, are the galvanizing coatings which may contain some very toxic metals (lead, cadmium), or stainless steel which contains very toxic chromium.

On another note.. while we continue our discussion of hazards associated with working on cars, I was suprized when looking through my MBZ manuals, in preparation for a valve job, to find that the exhaust valves have their core filled with sodium....no, not sodium chloride (table salt)....but pure sodium metal...apparently it acts as a heat sink to protect the valves (neat idea). DO NOT TRY TO ACCESS THIS STUFF BY SAWING OR GRINDING INTO A VALVE....THIS STUFF IS PROBABLY THE MOST DANGEROUS SUBSTANCE IN THE CAR...AND I MEAN REALLY, REALLY DANGEROUS. IT REACTS WITH WATER TO EXPLODE VIOLENTLY SENDING OUT FLAMES, SHRAPNEL, MOLTEN METAL...LEAVE THE EXHAUST VALVES INTACT!!!

MARK
__________________
1984 300TD Wagon, 407,800 mi (current daily driver)
1985 300DT Sedan, 330,000 mi (gone to that great autobahn in the sky)
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 12-15-2005, 08:45 AM
whunter's Avatar
Moderator
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Metro Detroit, Michigan
Posts: 17,357
Thumbs up Thank you

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkM
On another note.. while we continue our discussion of hazards associated with working on cars, I was surprised when looking through my MBZ manuals, in preparation for a valve job, to find that the exhaust valves have their core filled with sodium....no, not sodium chloride (table salt)....but pure sodium metal...apparently it acts as a heat sink to protect the valves (neat idea). DO NOT TRY TO ACCESS THIS STUFF BY SAWING OR GRINDING INTO A VALVE....THIS STUFF IS PROBABLY THE MOST DANGEROUS SUBSTANCE IN THE CAR...AND I MEAN REALLY, REALLY DANGEROUS. IT REACTS WITH WATER TO EXPLODE VIOLENTLY SENDING OUT FLAMES, SHRAPNEL, MOLTEN METAL...LEAVE THE EXHAUST VALVES INTACT!!!

MARK
Danger:
You really do not want to work with this element.


It's ELEMENTAL
http://education.jlab.org/itselemental/ele011.html
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 12-15-2005, 09:24 AM
Holeshot's Avatar
Have gunsight will travel
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: (near) Seattle, WA
Posts: 258
Quote:
Originally Posted by phidauex
If I don't wear the ear protection, I'm worn out after just a little while, but with the ear protection, I can go all day without getting tired (and have, on many occasions). Seriously, it makes a bigger difference than people realize in your comfort!
As a motorcyclist I believe this is true. When wearing hearing protection inside the helmet I am far less stressed and rider longer than when I do not have them in. Come to think of it, when driving my convertable I get tired of it much faster than when I am in my ubercruiser W124 (or maybe it's the type of road.. LOL). I do find that sound of any type affects my concentration and concentration required energy. Less noise, less energy required to stay on task is how I see it.
__________________
-----------------------------------------------------
David - Bremerton, WA
1999 CLK430 - daily driver
1995 993 C2 - race modified (auto-x weapon)
2000 Durango - parts and dirt bike hauler
2005 KTM950S - Baja, here I come!!!
Bloggy blogger blog
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 12-15-2005, 05:39 PM
phidauex's Avatar
BioDiesel Hopeful
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: St. Louis, MO
Posts: 806
Quote:
Originally Posted by Holeshot
As a motorcyclist I believe this is true. When wearing hearing protection inside the helmet I am far less stressed and rider longer than when I do not have them in. Come to think of it, when driving my convertable I get tired of it much faster than when I am in my ubercruiser W124 (or maybe it's the type of road.. LOL). I do find that sound of any type affects my concentration and concentration required energy. Less noise, less energy required to stay on task is how I see it.
Yup! Hearing protection is one of the most important things cited by long distance riders, Ironbutts and the like, for preventing fatigue. Its not just for long term health (which is important) but for short term comfort as well.

peace,
sam
__________________
"That f***in' biodiesel is makin' me hungry."

1982 300TD Astral Silver w/ 250k (BIO BNZ)
2001 Aprilia SR50 Corsa Red w/ 5.5k (>100 MPG)

Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 12-15-2005, 09:52 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: North Dakota
Posts: 1,590
Quote:
Originally Posted by whunter
Danger:
You really do not want to work with this element.


It's ELEMENTAL
http://education.jlab.org/itselemental/ele011.html
In high school chemistry we took a small piece of sodium the size of a pea with a forceps (do not touch it with your fingers the moisture in your sweat will set it off) and dropped it in a beaker of water. It blew the beaker to hell. Only a fool would grind a sodium cooled valve in a valve grinder especially if the grinder had water solluable oil for a coolant. I often thought that a chunk of sodium the size of a softball would work great for lake fishing.
__________________
1983 300-D turbo
1985 300-D turbo
1959 Harley Panhead chopper
1929 Ford coupe restored
I hang out with Boneheaddoctor at Schuman Automotive OBK#5
All liberals are mattoids but not all mattoids are liberal.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 12-16-2005, 01:59 AM
Brandon314159
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Sodium is not as bad as you think it might be.

http://www.qsl.net/kd7inf/experiment_files/sodium.wmv

That was a HUGE chunk...probably 3-4lbs. (sold for thousands of dollar on the black market). Anything about the size of a pea etc is not TERRIBLY dangerous...

Now cesium...thats another story That one will get ya toasty.

So first hand experience...you could empty a valve into a pot of water and get some light fiz...maybe some heat...the oxidation byproduct would irritate your eyes/skin but the quantity is so small that you are not at SERIOUS risk.

Not trying to downplay the dangers but sodium is not as "bad" as many people think. I used to fear it too until I actually got to play with it.

Oh I loved high school chemisty
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 12-16-2005, 07:47 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: North Dakota
Posts: 1,590
Kids don't even get to do the real experiments in high school like we did. Our school loaded up all of the chemicals and sent them to the EPA for proper disposal. Now they do their experiments on a computer. Big deal. I had more fun in chemistry until the teacher shut my lab down when I requested sulphuric acid and potasium cyanide.
__________________
1983 300-D turbo
1985 300-D turbo
1959 Harley Panhead chopper
1929 Ford coupe restored
I hang out with Boneheaddoctor at Schuman Automotive OBK#5
All liberals are mattoids but not all mattoids are liberal.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 12-16-2005, 08:19 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: RI shore
Posts: 2,937
Quote:
Originally Posted by J. R. B.
Kids don't even get to do the real experiments in high school like we did. Our school loaded up all of the chemicals and sent them to the EPA for proper disposal. Now they do their experiments on a computer. Big deal. I had more fun in chemistry until the teacher shut my lab down when I requested sulphuric acid and potasium cyanide.
my friend and I got caught pouring glycerin down a glass rod onto 12M nitric acid. Good thing the teacher was a substitute and didn't know.

BTW, this statement: I often thought that a chunk of sodium the size of a softball would work great for lake fishing. concerns me. Everyone should know that the preferred "surface attractant" is dynamite. Besides, I'm watching my sodium level
__________________
'82 300SD - 361K mi - "Blue"

"Good judgement comes from experience. Experience comes from bad judgement."

listen, look, .........and duck.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 12-16-2005, 12:01 PM
Brandon314159
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Quote:
Originally Posted by J. R. B.
Kids don't even get to do the real experiments in high school like we did. Our school loaded up all of the chemicals and sent them to the EPA for proper disposal. Now they do their experiments on a computer. Big deal. I had more fun in chemistry until the teacher shut my lab down when I requested sulphuric acid and potasium cyanide.
Not to threadjack an otherwise VERY important thread however my lab class evacuated our entire high school twice. And its not a small school.

Both time, them chemical storage bottle was...lets say...a bit gassy

"Ah I can't breathe!"
"I guess we shouldn't have made phosgene gas for our experiment today!"
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 12-16-2005, 12:05 PM
LarryBible
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
When I first started posting on mercedesshop almost 6 years ago, there was a frequent poster that went by "Deezel." He was an Aircraft Mechanic from Georgia. He evidently had lost a friend or seen someone badly hurt because he was constantly interjecting very good safety information. I called him the self appointed safety officer.

After he stopped posting, I would try to point out safety concerns where they were appropriate in posts but have lost the habit. I am glad that whunter is now our proactive safety officer and this is appreciated at least by me, and I expect by all.

It is all too common to see people in a shop environment violate common sense safety rules. The problem is that most of the time they get by with some of these violations which makes them lacadaisical(sp?) about it, which ultimately ends up with bad or drastic results.

I have to admit that if I am doing a quick weld on something galvanized, I don't always grind away the coating. An example is a couple of galvanized electric boxes that I welded onto my welding cart about a year ago. The shop doors were open and a breeze was blowing through so I turned my body upwind and welded these things in place right quick. With the breeze I don't think it hurt much, but I am the first to admit that it would have been best to grind off the galvanize first.

Thanks whunter for thinking of us all!

Merry Christmas,
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 12-16-2005, 12:13 PM
boneheaddoctor's Avatar
Senior Benz fanatic
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Hells half acre (Great Falls, Virginia)
Posts: 16,007
Quote:
Originally Posted by LarryBible
When I first started posting on mercedesshop almost 6 years ago, there was a frequent poster that went by "Deezel." He was an Aircraft Mechanic from Georgia. He evidently had lost a friend or seen someone badly hurt because he was constantly interjecting very good safety information. I called him the self appointed safety officer.

After he stopped posting, I would try to point out safety concerns where they were appropriate in posts but have lost the habit. I am glad that whunter is now our proactive safety officer and this is appreciated at least by me, and I expect by all.

It is all too common to see people in a shop environment violate common sense safety rules. The problem is that most of the time they get by with some of these violations which makes them lacadaisical(sp?) about it, which ultimately ends up with bad or drastic results.

I have to admit that if I am doing a quick weld on something galvanized, I don't always grind away the coating. An example is a couple of galvanized electric boxes that I welded onto my welding cart about a year ago. The shop doors were open and a breeze was blowing through so I turned my body upwind and welded these things in place right quick. With the breeze I don't think it hurt much, but I am the first to admit that it would have been best to grind off the galvanize first.

Thanks whunter for thinking of us all!

Merry Christmas,
I agree.....many of us have bad habbits that we keep doing becasue we never got hurt yet.(or even really think about it)...point being is unsafe practices are like plaing Russian roullete.....eventually you are going to end up with a loaded chamber. Then BOOM.....its too late.
__________________
Proud owner of ....
1971 280SE W108
1979 300SD W116
1983 300D W123
1975 Ironhead Sportster chopper
1987 GMC 3/4 ton 4X4 Diesel
1989 Honda Civic (Heavily modified)
---------------------
Section 609 MVAC Certified
---------------------
"He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." - Friedrich Nietzsche
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 12-16-2005, 03:42 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: North Dakota
Posts: 1,590
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brandon314159
Not to threadjack an otherwise VERY important thread however my lab class evacuated our entire high school twice. And its not a small school.
I did something similar in 1975 only I heated arsenic in a crucible. My experiments bordered on the bizzare.
Anyway back to the topic on sodium cooled valves. Years ago when one purchased new sodium cooled valves there was a warning on the box that said it was unsafe to grind them because of water solulable cooling oil used in valve grinders. I always took their word for it and threw the old ones away.
__________________
1983 300-D turbo
1985 300-D turbo
1959 Harley Panhead chopper
1929 Ford coupe restored
I hang out with Boneheaddoctor at Schuman Automotive OBK#5
All liberals are mattoids but not all mattoids are liberal.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On




All times are GMT -4. The time now is 06:23 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2018 Pelican Parts, LLC - Posts may be archived for display on the Peach Parts or Pelican Parts Website -    DMCA Registered Agent Contact Page