Tools-is it worth it to buy a welder and if so what kind? - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

Carrameow · #1 09-29-2003, 10:50 AM

Among the specialized tools I own: a Vacuum pump , an air compressor , an engine hoist, several kinds of Pitman pullers, shop ginders

...All the tools pay their freight except for my investment in compressed air. It turned out I dont use air tools that much, you cant access tight spaces , they scare the neighbors ,and I only use the compressed air to clean when I am rebuilding engines.

---Would an arc welder turn out to be a similar boondogle? I dont need an overpriced toy. I plan to use it fix the rust pitting on the body on my 240D and do some exhaust work. I was really po'd when Mieneke charged me $60 for an exhaust weld--

If not, what kind of welder should I look at?

Tools--is it worth it to buy a welder and if so what kind?

dmorrison · #2 09-29-2003, 11:03 AM

How do you feel about tools? Do you buy quality so they last. then IF you buy a welder buy a Lincoln-Electric (LE), Hobart or Miller.
You can buy a cheap unit form Harbor Freight. But the quality is not there. LE has a flux core at Home Depot for $300. This is a good unit and will do just about anything a hobbies will need to do.
I bought the LE weldpak 100 at Home Depot. But with tools, gas conversion and carts etc. I have $650 into it.
But I was restoring a 65 Mustang. I figured all the welding would have cost me $500. If I had everything ready to go when he came. I did the welding over 6 months.
I then installed a new gate opener. The supplier charges $400 for the job I did. The mounting brackets are welded onto the gate.

You could buy an inexpensive stick welder from Harbor Freight. You can get one for about $70-80. It would allow a good amount of welding.

Dave

#3 09-29-2003, 11:26 AM

If you don't know how to weld, I highly suggest you get a wire fed gas (MIG). I bought a Lincoln weld-pak 100 off ebay for $230, plus another $100 for the gas coversion, plus $50 for the gas bottle. Miller makes about the best welder. Thes costs of the entry level MIG is about $668. It should come with an auto darkening helmet, a $100+ value, something I wish I had

If I had to do it again, I would buy a higher voltage welder because I plan on doing some frame work on my truck. This is probably not necessary in your case. You can rent one from Home Depot for $25 /hr or $60/day (I think). If you do buy one, you will realize all the projects you can do.

leathermang · #4 09-29-2003, 11:38 AM

This is not the question you asked , unless by inference you take it to mean no on the arc welder.
What the other guys have said is true... but it really sounds like you don't need an ARC WELDER.....
But I do not know how people live without an Oxy-Acet rig... and you could get the little ones like the AC people carry around ( called peanut rigs )....
You would not have done that $60 welding job on the exhaust pipe with an arc welder... you would have used the oxy-acet rig... and you can cut metal with it... ( I know that technically you can use carbon arc to cut with the arc but it is not as nice or cheap )
Heating things that don't want to come apart... and just cutting those that WON'T come apart any other way...
I used to dream about having an auto darkening helmut... I have a 250 amp Miller heliarc.... must be 50 years old.. the heavy core type.. but when I read about the autodarkening... it CAN burn your eyes because it does not completely shield them... just a fraction of a second.. but over the course of a day it can be bad for you ....

#5 09-29-2003, 11:57 AM

I beleive you can do exhaust work with a MIG if you get the right type of wire and use pure argon.

wheelguru · #6 09-29-2003, 12:08 PM

I think Greg makes a good point about oxy-acetelyne v. Mig. I have access to a small Lincoln mig welder here at work, and it is nice and also fairly easy to use, but it will not weld more than 1/8" stock (and that is pushing it). It is nice on sheet metal and exhaust pipes. To do thicker stuff you need more amps. I have brazed a couple of bike frames with a torch, and that was easy, I assume welding with one is similar. I think a torch might be a little more versatile, but for body work mig would be fine.

leathermang · #7 09-29-2003, 12:45 PM

NUKE..... LOL..... let me guess.... you have never been on the ground with both arms above your head trying to weld an exhaust pipe all the way around its circumference... have you ?
Many places just stick pieces of stock together and use a ubolt to tighten them up... which works for some things... and if the fit and access is ok... but a torch used to put a pipe section is very useful because SPARKS ARE NOT DROPPING ON YOU from above... and the welding helmet is in the way when you are upside down under the car.... I am sure you are going from generic comparisons of the two types of welding... not from the dirty practical. With a curved tip you can get to the top of the pipe with VERY little clearance... and then go to the other side and complete it... but you HAVE to have a certain amount of clearance and hand placement for a mig unit...

#8 09-29-2003, 12:50 PM

I should have better prefaced what I said my saying I haven't done it myself, although I was thinking of trying it. In my case for my truck, I was going to take the exhaust off, something fairly easy to do. That being said, from what I have heard, using a torch takes a lot of practice/skill something a do-it-youselfer may not have.

rickg · #9 09-29-2003, 01:04 PM

I bought a Century 120V MIG welder from a fella I work with several years ago. Works ok. Does a great job on exhaust systems with the gas. Don't even mess with the flux core wire. Too inconsistant and hard to maintain a good arc. I used for a lot of misc home projects for awhile. But the thing just sits now. Not sure it was worth the purchase, especially after my brother bought a big water cooled Miller TIG welder. Now THAT's a welder!!

kerry · #10 09-29-2003, 02:02 PM

I agree that the oxy-acetylene is a more useful tool and I wish I had one. However, I did pick up an arc welder at an estate sale for $15 with three or four boxes of rod and three helmets. I guess I can justify that investment. It has proved useful a few times and I enjoy using it.
The downside to having oxy-acetylene would be that I might feel obligated to do my own exhaust work!

dmorrison · #11 09-29-2003, 03:52 PM

Carrameow

I hope that all the various posts will help you decide. The easiest welding to learn is MIG welding. Then Stick or Arc then Oxy/acetylene. Then TIG.
YOu can weld any metal with a MIG, if you have the right wire and gas. The same with TIG, which is the Mercedes of welding. I'm not very familiar with Oxy/Acet. So I will not overly talk about oxy.
Each method has its good points and its bad points.
MIG
flux core splatters alot. Use an antispatter spray.
With gas its easier and a much better weld.
TIG
Much more expensive. Can do all metals.
requires more effort to learn the technique. But you can do it.
Oxy
Don't know much about it. Seems a little more difficult in some ways and easier in others. It may be a cheaper way of getting started.
Arc welding. The cheapest to buy.
Easy to learn and you can do the majority of metals.

As was posted the Oxy is easiest for working on the exhaust inthe car. Mig is easy too. Tig requires more finess and is expensive. Arc needs room around the weld to do it. Probably as much as mig and tig.

Heres what you do. Go to Barnes and Nobles, Stop off at the Starbucks, which every B+N has and get your self a cup of coffe.
Pick up a "how to weld" book and review it. It should discuss all the different kinds of welders including plasma cutting. Read through the book. Focus on MIG, ARC and Oxy.
If you have an inkling as what you want go rent one for a day and see if it will be worth your while. Practice some welds and bring them by the Hgh School shop for a "grade " on your welds and get recomendations, Or bring it by a welding shop that is helpful.

I bought the MIG welder because I was doing the Mustang and mainly because I'm a tool hog. I have used it quite a few times and it has payed for itself through the projects Ive done.
You will really have to determine IF you want it. Can you justify the expence. Or will it become a stationary object in your garage.

About auto dimming helmets. I have a cheap one. $80 at Harbor Freight. It dims in 1/2000th of a second. More expensive helmets dim in 1/5000th of a second. I would definately buy the more expensive helmet if I was welding more often than the 15-16 times I've welding over the last 3 years I've owned it. Just doesnot make me feel the $250 helmet is worth it. Yes welding produces UV rays. I burned my skin, sunburn, while practicing when I first got it. A small corner at the top of my open shirt. I was welding for about 45 mins.

Dave

MS Fowler · #12 09-29-2003, 05:13 PM

A little info regarding arc welding....
Stick ( or SMAW) is the cheapest to start. It also welds well in windy conditions and you can easily weld dirty-rusty metal. Difficult to use on thin sheet metal without blowing big holes in the sheet metal, ( or so I've been told).

Wire Fed--Mig and flux core wire
Easiest to learn. More intial cost that stick. When using shielding gas you are limited to shop work--outside, windy conditions are difficult. You also must have clean metals. You can use the same machine, without gas, and weld with flux core wire. This is still easy to learn, and has the added advantage of welding rusty, dirty materials as well as sitck. Also less concern with wind in outdoors conditions.

One more term with which you should become familiar is" duty cycle". It is the number of minutes out of 10 that you can weld. i.e. a duty cycle of 20 means that you can weld for only 2 minutes in any 10 minute period. Low cost machines typically have shorter duty cycles than quality machines.

One more item for using wire feed machines--you only need as much pressure on the drive mechanisim to feed the wire without slipping--too much pressure can crush flux core wire. Not an issue with solid wire and shielding gas.

leathermang · #13 09-29-2003, 06:14 PM

"Now THAT's a welder!!"--rick
I probably have the great grandpa of that welder... mine is also a 250 amp Miller TIG unit with water cooling.... 100 percent welding cycle...which is a lot more fun... I bought it at a divorce sale for $220 in 1971.... It came with the industrial water cooled tungston holder.... but that would weld 1 inch plate aluminum... not anything I ever saw around my place... so I got a gas cooled tip.
From what you guys describe I must be doing everything the hard way...
But I really don't think that the oxy-acet is hard to learn .... FOR THIS REASON....
You can see the puddle as it is being formed and flows together... so you can IMMEDIATELY change or keep the flame there longer and fix it....
BUT with these others you can not see it actually happening due to it being under flux or too bright... some minor exceptions... but it does not change my point...so you have to wait until the end of the run and chip off the slag... then try to adjust speed/amp/size of rod etc... much harder to me... you have to read the symptoms... instead of seeing what is happening...

rwthomas1 · #14 09-29-2003, 07:03 PM

While I agree with Greg on the usefulness of a Oxy rig I prefer to weld with a MIG, or "idiot welder" I am planning on purchasing this one http://www.mylincolnelectric.com/Catalog/equipmentdatasheet.asp?p=8961 It appears to be LE's best 110volt model. The big plus is continuous full-range adjustment of voltage and wire feed speed allows for fine-tuning of the arc and precise control of heat input. This is big difference over the cheaper models. It really allows control over the weld quality. At $700 with the accessories its a bargain, but I will admit more than some want to spend. I like to build stuff and work with metal so mine will see plenty of service. RT

rickg · #15 09-29-2003, 07:07 PM

I learned oxy-acetelane in high school. Got pretyt good at it for the reasons you said. I couldn't stick arc weld to save my life!! A real PIA for me. Mig is pretty easy compared to stick welding, I think. But yeah, you have to spend a few $$ to get a good MIG that'll give you the penatration that even a cheap stick welder will do.