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  #16  
Old 01-13-2008, 12:48 PM
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I was going to reply that you should upgrade the head unit and add good quality amps before replacing the speakers, but it seems you are on the right track.

. . .

I ran all Alpine gear in my 300E and it sounded excellent with the stock speakers (~4", 120mm). I used a 4-channel amp for the stock dash and rear shelf speakers, bridged 2-channel for a 10" sub in a ported box in the trunk, Alpine head unit. Sounded great.[/quote]

I figured that might be the outcome when I did this. I wish I had figured that out before I went through two rounds of speaker "upgrades" in my
CE. It just did not sound good until I added an amp. I'll let you know how this works out.
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1994 E500 199/Gray 82k
84 300D (Salty) Orient Red/Palomino 141k
88 300CE (Ersatzhammer) 904/Java 163k -- Turbo Technics twin turbo kit, AMG Gen I body kit, Sportline steering box and steering wheel, Sportline/Eibach /Bilstein Sport/500E suspension, Quaife LSD in 210 mm diff case, Silver Arrow brakes.
88 300CE Brabus 3.6 199 on Black 44k
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  #17  
Old 01-13-2008, 12:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nphilanthro View Post
Its not that the Rainbows aren't a better speaker than the OEM speakers. They are. It's that the rest of your equipment is of higher quality than the Rainbows. This simply means that you won't be using all of your amplifiers capability.

If you would please post the specifications (the output wattage) of the amplifier that you have, or are going to get, then it would be much easier for me to tell you how different speakers will affect your sound. I have installed 8 full audio systems (head unit, speakers, amplifiers, subs, capacitors, sound dampening material, you name it...) and have listened to hundreds over the past few years at events and such, so I hope I can help you make a decision.
The MB Quart amp is 620 Watts RMS, 80 x 4 and 1 x 300 at 2 ohms, I think about 25% less at 4 ohms.
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I never go far without a little Big Star

1994 E500 199/Gray 82k
84 300D (Salty) Orient Red/Palomino 141k
88 300CE (Ersatzhammer) 904/Java 163k -- Turbo Technics twin turbo kit, AMG Gen I body kit, Sportline steering box and steering wheel, Sportline/Eibach /Bilstein Sport/500E suspension, Quaife LSD in 210 mm diff case, Silver Arrow brakes.
88 300CE Brabus 3.6 199 on Black 44k
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  #18  
Old 01-13-2008, 05:36 PM
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The OEM speakers perform quite well for their age... Put an amp on them, and get them clean power, and they are pretty good.
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  #19  
Old 01-14-2008, 02:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by remotemark View Post
The MB Quart amp is 620 Watts RMS, 80 x 4 and 1 x 300 at 2 ohms, I think about 25% less at 4 ohms.
As I expected, your amplifier has a nice amount of power. It is rated at 80 x 4 at 2 ohms... Almost all car speakers are approx. 4 ohms. So your amp will produce around 40 - 50 watts RMS at 4 ohms.

First off, I would not power the stock speakers with this. They weren't built to handle the power that your amplifier puts out. Also, after 10+ years, the paper cones are most likely wearing out and getting brittle. This just further increases the chances of blowing the speakers. I would highly suggest installing after market speakers. I commented on a few below.

The Rainbow speakers are rated at 100 watts PEAK... Unfortunately they don't show the RMS. This is common with lower quality speakers companies.This is just an observation... I cannot comment on the quality of Rainbow, however, because I have personal experience with them. My guess would be 25-30 watts RMS for those. They are definitely an option.

I know that Alpine makes a 5.25" coaxial that would definitely work well. Their Type S 5.25's are 35 watts RMS, 170 PEAK, and realistically should be able to take 45 watts without any trouble. These would be easy to install in the rear deck. For the dashboard, you might have to downsize to Alpine's 4" speakers. I haven't tried to fit a 5.25" in there yet. I can guarantee you that you would never blow these speakers. They can handle a lot. And for the price, they sound great.

Both of these speakers have their own appealing characteristics. The rainbows will basically be a drop in replacement. They were created specifically to replace the w124 speakers. The Alpine's will require a bit of modification to fit (rear deck very easy, dash I can't comment on), but you will get the legendary quality and durability that Alpine is known for. Either way, I think you will be happy, it just depends on what YOU want.

I really hope this helps. If you have any questions, just let me know.

Out of curiosity, what sub are you planning on putting in?

P.S. - I will be installing a full Alpine system in a friends w124 within the next week or two. I will then be able to comment on the fitting of the dash speakers.
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  #20  
Old 01-14-2008, 10:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nphilanthro View Post
As I expected, your amplifier has a nice amount of power. It is rated at 80 x 4 at 2 ohms... Almost all car speakers are approx. 4 ohms. So your amp will produce around 40 - 50 watts RMS at 4 ohms.

First off, I would not power the stock speakers with this. They weren't built to handle the power that your amplifier puts out. Also, after 10+ years, the paper cones are most likely wearing out and getting brittle. This just further increases the chances of blowing the speakers. I would highly suggest installing after market speakers. I commented on a few below.

The Rainbow speakers are rated at 100 watts PEAK... Unfortunately they don't show the RMS. This is common with lower quality speakers companies.This is just an observation... I cannot comment on the quality of Rainbow, however, because I have personal experience with them. My guess would be 25-30 watts RMS for those. They are definitely an option.

I know that Alpine makes a 5.25" coaxial that would definitely work well. Their Type S 5.25's are 35 watts RMS, 170 PEAK, and realistically should be able to take 45 watts without any trouble. These would be easy to install in the rear deck. For the dashboard, you might have to downsize to Alpine's 4" speakers. I haven't tried to fit a 5.25" in there yet. I can guarantee you that you would never blow these speakers. They can handle a lot. And for the price, they sound great.

Both of these speakers have their own appealing characteristics. The rainbows will basically be a drop in replacement. They were created specifically to replace the w124 speakers. The Alpine's will require a bit of modification to fit (rear deck very easy, dash I can't comment on), but you will get the legendary quality and durability that Alpine is known for. Either way, I think you will be happy, it just depends on what YOU want.

I really hope this helps. If you have any questions, just let me know.

Out of curiosity, what sub are you planning on putting in?

P.S. - I will be installing a full Alpine system in a friends w124 within the next week or two. I will then be able to comment on the fitting of the dash speakers.
A colleague sold me a used Q-Logic box with a 10" Blaupunkt sub in it. It has a peak power rating of 2000 watts. My experience with Blaupunkt speakers is not good, but for fifty bucks I'll give it a try and if nothing else I'll have the box.
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I never go far without a little Big Star

1994 E500 199/Gray 82k
84 300D (Salty) Orient Red/Palomino 141k
88 300CE (Ersatzhammer) 904/Java 163k -- Turbo Technics twin turbo kit, AMG Gen I body kit, Sportline steering box and steering wheel, Sportline/Eibach /Bilstein Sport/500E suspension, Quaife LSD in 210 mm diff case, Silver Arrow brakes.
88 300CE Brabus 3.6 199 on Black 44k
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  #21  
Old 01-14-2008, 11:48 AM
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I was also wondering if anybody knows how to get to the door speakers. The dash and rear deck covers I know how to remove, but the door grill seems to be a differenct concept.
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I never go far without a little Big Star

1994 E500 199/Gray 82k
84 300D (Salty) Orient Red/Palomino 141k
88 300CE (Ersatzhammer) 904/Java 163k -- Turbo Technics twin turbo kit, AMG Gen I body kit, Sportline steering box and steering wheel, Sportline/Eibach /Bilstein Sport/500E suspension, Quaife LSD in 210 mm diff case, Silver Arrow brakes.
88 300CE Brabus 3.6 199 on Black 44k
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  #22  
Old 01-14-2008, 12:34 PM
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Just a remark about amplifier output ratings - they are all somewhat of a joke, except in the most scrupulous of companies with marketing execs that have a conscience.

You have to read all the fine print. 80W at 2 ohm. Fine, but with what voltage and what test reproduction frequency was this output established with? How much distortion (THD, etc.)?

The amp I powered my sub with was an Alpine V12 2 channel amp rated at approx. 220W x 1 RMS [4Ω -Bridged @14.4V (0.3%THD)]. It had more than enough power at the factory settings to get that Infinity 10" speaker thumping. For less than half the price of the Alpine, I could have purchased a Sony Xplod or similar amp with a rated 1000 watts. Which do you think would actually perform better in reality - i.e. outside the BS parameter listed on the box?

There are some very powerful amps out there, but their price is just as powerful, lol.

When speakers blow, it is usually due to a distorted (or clipped) signal being sent to the driver. This causes excess heat to be generated, which can cause the voice coil to fail. Mechanically, the driver cone can be damaged if it extrudes past what it was designed to, due to say trying to reproduce too low a frequency for the particular driver, etc.

That is why proper crossovers and adequate clean amplification are critical. The stock speakers I think are rated at approx. 100 watts. To blow them due to 'overpowering' you would have to have an amp that produces 100 watts of clean power per channel. If you were to blow a speaker, it is more likely due to an underpowered, overdriven signal being sent to the speaker, and/or sending the wrong frequencies to a certain driver (like sending too much bass to a tweeter).

I'm not sure I fully agree with paper cones 'getting weaker' with age.

My 30+ year old Altec Lansing Model 14 speakers in my living room still have the original (paper) woofers. They perform perfectly and sound fantastic. Paper cones are often very efficient (meaning they require less power to produce a given level of volume) when compared to polystyrene and other materials. These can take more 'abuse' but also require more power to get them moving.

All IMHO.
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2007 E550 4Matic - 61,000 Km - Iridium Silver, black leather, Sport package, Premium 2 package
2007 GL450 4Matic - 62,000 Km - Obsidian Black Metallic, black leather, all options
1998 E430 - sold
1989 300E - 333,000 Km - sold
1977 280E - sold
1971 250 - retired


"And a frign hat. They gave me a hat at the annual benefits meeting. I said. how does this benefit me. I dont have anything from the company.. So they gave me a hat." - TheDon

Last edited by Zeus; 01-14-2008 at 12:42 PM.
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  #23  
Old 01-14-2008, 01:03 PM
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Thanks, Zeus. BTW, if you're a clash fan, you should make sure you check out the recently released Carbon/Silicon album. I really liked it. Mick Jones can still play guitar.
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I never go far without a little Big Star

1994 E500 199/Gray 82k
84 300D (Salty) Orient Red/Palomino 141k
88 300CE (Ersatzhammer) 904/Java 163k -- Turbo Technics twin turbo kit, AMG Gen I body kit, Sportline steering box and steering wheel, Sportline/Eibach /Bilstein Sport/500E suspension, Quaife LSD in 210 mm diff case, Silver Arrow brakes.
88 300CE Brabus 3.6 199 on Black 44k
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  #24  
Old 01-14-2008, 01:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by remotemark View Post
I was also wondering if anybody knows how to get to the door speakers. The dash and rear deck covers I know how to remove, but the door grill seems to be a differenct concept.
Do NOT try to remove the speaker grills from the door panel. If you try to pop them off with a flathead screwdriver or something you will end up breaking them. You have to remove the door panel, and then unscrew them from the back. A good guide to removing the door panel can be found here:

http://www.peachparts.com/Wikka/W124DoorPanel

The speakers that are originally in the doors are powered by an amp already in the car. They are midbass speakers, meaning they only produce higher level bass (~50 - 200hz). You will have to run new wires from your amp to the door to bypass the old amp.

As for the sub, hook it up and give it a try. Hopefully you will get lucky and Blaupunkt will come through for you. If not, any other sub rated around 300 watts RMS should perform well. Of course, you get what you pay for. If you Blaupunkt fails to meet your needs, you might want to look into the Alpine Type S series subs. They are rated at exactly 300 watts RMS. I have personal experience with these and both times I have used them my clients were amazed. They hit very hard, and even more importantly, EXTREMELY clean. I would recommend putting one in a 1 cubic foot sealed box.
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  #25  
Old 01-14-2008, 01:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Zeus View Post
The amp I powered my sub with was an Alpine V12 2 channel amp rated at approx. 220W x 1 RMS [4Ω -Bridged @14.4V (0.3%THD)]. It had more than enough power at the factory settings to get that Infinity 10" speaker thumping. For less than half the price of the Alpine, I could have purchased a Sony Xplod or similar amp with a rated 1000 watts. Which do you think would actually perform better in reality - i.e. outside the BS parameter listed on the box? .....
Just to let you know, MB Quart is one of those companies who DOESN'T lie about their power ratings. They are of similar quality as Alpine. They rate their amps at 14.4 volts of power, and they are rated correctly. Most new amps come with a birth sheet that specify their exact output, which is at LEAST what the box says.
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  #26  
Old 01-14-2008, 04:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by remotemark View Post
Thanks, Zeus. BTW, if you're a clash fan, you should make sure you check out the recently released Carbon/Silicon album. I really liked it. Mick Jones can still play guitar.
Cool...I will check that out for sure...thx
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2007 E550 4Matic - 61,000 Km - Iridium Silver, black leather, Sport package, Premium 2 package
2007 GL450 4Matic - 62,000 Km - Obsidian Black Metallic, black leather, all options
1998 E430 - sold
1989 300E - 333,000 Km - sold
1977 280E - sold
1971 250 - retired


"And a frign hat. They gave me a hat at the annual benefits meeting. I said. how does this benefit me. I dont have anything from the company.. So they gave me a hat." - TheDon
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  #27  
Old 01-14-2008, 04:52 PM
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Originally Posted by nphilanthro View Post
Just to let you know, MB Quart is one of those companies who DOESN'T lie about their power ratings. They are of similar quality as Alpine. They rate their amps at 14.4 volts of power, and they are rated correctly. Most new amps come with a birth sheet that specify their exact output, which is at LEAST what the box says.
True, my Alpine had the factory diploma as well.

But there are so many variables...most are geared towards getting the highest marketable rating - i.e. 14.4V, 2 ohm, mid-range frequency, THD > 0.10%, etc. In real terms, unless you are driving a diesel tractor or you have installed an upgraded alternator/voltage regulator, you won't be outputting 14.4V all the time. Ditto with the 2 ohm speaker load. Change those specs to 12V, 8 ohm and the numbers drop VERY fast. I suppose what was my point (I probably didn't state it clearly enough). Optimum vs. real situation power outputs. I agree that MB Quart has an excellent rep, I've never used their gear so can't comment first-hand.
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Chris
2007 E550 4Matic - 61,000 Km - Iridium Silver, black leather, Sport package, Premium 2 package
2007 GL450 4Matic - 62,000 Km - Obsidian Black Metallic, black leather, all options
1998 E430 - sold
1989 300E - 333,000 Km - sold
1977 280E - sold
1971 250 - retired


"And a frign hat. They gave me a hat at the annual benefits meeting. I said. how does this benefit me. I dont have anything from the company.. So they gave me a hat." - TheDon
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  #28  
Old 01-14-2008, 05:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeus View Post
True, my Alpine had the factory diploma as well.

But there are so many variables...most are geared towards getting the highest marketable rating - i.e. 14.4V, 2 ohm, mid-range frequency, THD > 0.10%, etc. In real terms, unless you are driving a diesel tractor or you have installed an upgraded alternator/voltage regulator, you won't be outputting 14.4V all the time. Ditto with the 2 ohm speaker load. Change those specs to 12V, 8 ohm and the numbers drop VERY fast. I suppose what was my point (I probably didn't state it clearly enough). Optimum vs. real situation power outputs. I agree that MB Quart has an excellent rep, I've never used their gear so can't comment first-hand.
Agreed 100%.

Looks like we both agree on another thing as well. Alpine is amazing!
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  #29  
Old 01-14-2008, 06:50 PM
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Make sure to get ample wiring size for your application.


I have seen very nice systems with very low quality wiring, leading to poor quality sound.

I have run 2 gauge wire from my battery straight into my amp. No distribution blocks, no breaks, nothing other than my fuse. I have another 2 gauge cable running straight from the battery to my 4 channel. Once again no breaks other than the fuse, bringing good, clean power straight to my 4 amp.



People here are too fussy. Get a quality amp, and connect them to those speakers. They will sound a pretty good deal better. (As long as they are not blown.)
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  #30  
Old 01-14-2008, 07:11 PM
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Originally Posted by iwrock View Post
People here are too fussy. Get a quality amp, and connect them to those speakers. They will sound a pretty good deal better.
Well said. We just want him to be happy with his system.

And to remotemark - there is one thing that no one has asked you that is important.
What are you looking to get out of this system. It sounds like sound quality is important to you. How loud do you want it to get? How important is the bass in your system to you? Do you want your music to be heard outside of the car? And what kind of music do you listen to?
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