I can't seem to decipher all the wonderful information on this forum due to my illiteracy with 'paint talk'.

I have seen the words 'chalky', 'faded', dull, gritty, rough, speckled, oxidized, (my favorite)= 'gone', sun damaged,... all with respect to a deteriorating paint job.

what is the difference between an un-salvageable clear coat and oxidized paint?

will a removing compound do more damage than good if, in fact, my clear coat is gone?

When it rains, I can run my finger along the paint and find the paint color on my finger - like chalk.
If I rub on the paint enough, it returns to a gloss finish.

what is wrong with my paint??

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If you compound a car with missing areas of clear coat, you will destroy the colored paint underneath; it will remove the colored paint. In addition the compounding may exacerbate the clear coat problem by removing more of the deteriorating clear coat and then more of the color comes off.

I had a '70 silver 6.3 that had just the beginnings of clear coat coming off the hood due to exposure to the sun. Seems like the areas where the clear coat had come off were pretty dull and very noticeable especially against the shiny remaining clear coat areas. However I took it to a dealer and they compounded the hood and destroyed the paint completely. They ended up repainting the hood. This was in the day when the cars came with a color coat(s) and clear coat(s) finish.

I am told that you cannot just re-clear coat the bad areas because they will never look the same.

Sold that car in 1985 so all this is from memory of a long time ago.

what did those areas of missing clear coat look like?

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this is not what I have.

my paint is uniformly faded wherever the sun and rain have a direct line of attack.

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this is more like what I have.

another site called this "oxidized"

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What you described sounds like a compound like Turbo Cut by http://www.wizardsproducts.com (WizardsProducts.com) would work well on. A dicey issue is when you have the clear coat that cannot be removed by the compounding treatment. You'll only know when you get a 7" grinder buffer, with variable speed set to 1,500 - 2,000 RPM, and go at it with a 50% -50% wool polyester velcro'ed on bonnet, and see. The Wizards products worked like a charm for me. Good luck!

Usually it is only single stage paint which can be revived by compounding. This removes the exterior layer of damaged paint. The paint acquires a "chalky", bleached, dull, faded appearance and in severe cases will indeed rub off on your fingers or "run" off during a wash job.

You can compound this outer layer off and restore the finish to close to the original luster and it will retain it's gloss. Do NOT use a rotary buffer along the edges such as the corners of the fenders, along the grooves in the door, etc. Line these areas with masking tape, buff up to the paint and hand buff those areas! It's a lot more work but not as much as when you buff through the areas and reveal the primer or nice, shiny metal underneath. Yeah, go ahead and ask!

Clear-coated or "two stage paint" is a different story. The "base" coat is a very "weak" paint and can't take any kind of exposure to the elements. Once the "clear" layer's integrity is destroyed it's, "game over". You can attempt to stave off the inevitable by prepping and spot painting clear onto those areas but it's just a "feel good" effort. I'm presently doing this on a '74 280C Anthracite gray just to keep it presentable while I'm getting the mechanicals sorted out.

You can sand the individual areas, repaint and re-clear, but you need to do the whole panel to make it look close. Make use of the "horizon" or "blend" lines (the sides of the hood, beneath the chrome trim strips, door edges, etc.) to get the closest match. You will NEVER, and I mean NEVER, get the paint 100% color matched and that is why you paint to the "horizons".

JMK, the paint moderator on the "bodywork" board, can give you all the technical info on why the clear doesn't adhere and separates and what the chemical compositions are and he does it in the most splendiforous terms. He is THE expert on paint formulations and characteristics as that is what his career is.

Me, my paint vocabulary is limited to, "uggh, paint no-good, clean, sand, spray, spray, ummm, shiny, buff, buff, wash, damned bugs"

The previous comment by Mike D between solid color finishes and base clear systems is dead on. On single stage systems (which will almost always be solid color. Metallics haven't been sprayed single stage in auto plants since the early '70's), you can use polishing compound to remove the oxidized layer and then wax to restore gloss.

Delamination of the clear from the basecoat will never be solved by waxing. At that point the car needs to be repainted, you just have to determine what is the best method to go about this. The problem usually is in the clear, but not always. Sometimes the problem is in the first primer. Go back and read some of the posts in the paint and bodywork sections to see this.

Just to let you know, I seriously doubt that waxing will increase the life of the coating. Products may go on easier and look better. But claims of 5 year life and increase in durability of coatings is unlikely.

My opinions are based on experience. When I worked in the field, my collegues and I always noticed that waxed test panels tended to weather faster during exposure than unwaxed panels.

A Japanese customer that a collegue of mine serviced wanted to be able to advertise that their car's finishes never needed to be waxed. Based on our observations, we thought that could be easily defended. My collegue made up test panels waxed with various companys' waxes, protectorants, etc. and unwaxed test panels. His team exposed them, and tracked their appearance over time. None of the wax systems inproved the appearance of the coatings over time. In fact, they were all worse.

The customer decided to run the advertising campaign. One of the manufacturers of car care products decided to sue based on "false advertising." Before the case went to trial, the customer had my collegue show the wax manufacturer their products compared to the unwaxed samples. They immediately dropped the lawsuit. It never went to trial.

Now, this was a long time ago, and there may be something out there that actually works. But after almost 20 years in the coatings industry and designing everything from interior architectural to automotive OEM, I have noticed that all of the the water sealers and protective waxes that I have tested simply do not increase durability. They actually tend to decrease durability. Can I say this for all products? No. I haven't tested everything, nor even enough different products for me to be sure. Can I say anything I tested actually improved durability. No. One thing I can say is that most of the manufactuers and sellers of these products have numerous tests to show how the products work, but they tend to neglect real world testing. Real world testing is expensive and slow. Accelerated testing is much faster and easier, but it is only an estimation of real world data. It is easy to be fooled by such accelerated tests.

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2010 Toyota matrix

'93 500 SEL
A bad addiction. Takes all of my cash.

'12 Volvo S80 T6
Needed something that wasn't as hard to deal with as my bad addiction

'18 Mazda Miata
No more boring cars for everyday transport!

That is very powerful advice, tremendous thanks to you all.

I spent the past few days reading through Lee Scheeler's advice in many of the older threads and found that Meguiar's #9 - #7 - #26 to be a very popular choice for repairing oxidization. I bought #7 and #26 but #9 was not available.

Is 3M's rubbing compound a legitimate substitute for #9?

JMK - for all its worth, it seems you are telling me to skip #26 (or any waxing layer). Is there anything that can be done otherwise to protect a freshly exposed layer of paint?

SkidRowJoe - I have to testify AGAINST your advice. After reading many threads in numerous forums, it appears that synthetic fibers should be avoided at all costs. And the speed of the buffer on older paints with questionable material left should not exceed 1500 rpm MAX.

MikeD - since I cannot find a reasonably priced orbital, I am going to do it by hand - I need the workout. Good warning.

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Harbor Freight (uggghhhh!) is where I got mine. $29 on sale. Works fine for my home use. I use the "buffandshine" system set-up. They're on the web at:

buffandshine.com

You can usually find them locally at any good automotive paint supplier or find your local car wash supplies dealers. They handle all kinds of cool stuff for the detailing industry.

What to do to protect a new finish? Keep it clean. Use mild soap and water, clean sponges, and clean, soft towels to dry.

Avoid automatic car washes with brushes and cloths. They will eventually scratch the finish. (One abrasion test in the auto industry was to attach test panels to a car and run it 20 times through a car wash, then run appearance testing.)

Wash it w/o out using liquid waxes at the car wash, if you choose to use a car wash. Sulfuric acid is added to a lot of those formluations to make the wax sprayable. There are few things worse for a car finish than hot strong acid-containing materials. Plus, sulfuric acid is great for promoting rust.

Keep it out of the sun as much as possible for the first couple of months.

Avoid parking the car near heavy industrial sites or power plants, especially coal fired powerplants and steel mills. (for new and old finishes)

Get tree sap and bugs off as fast as possible (that goes for all finishes--new and old.)

If the car has been painted around the fuel filler, be very careful with gasoline. The blends with ethanol are extremely hard on paint.

When to wax? Wait as long as you can tolerate after repainting. A lot of post-cure chemistry goes on in a coating. The longer you wait to wax, the better.

On waxing, you do get some abrasion resistance. waxing does help protect cars from that, but for everyday durability--never did see anything that actually worked in real world exterior tests. Only saw things get worse.

I think part of the difference of opinion on the protective powers of waxing is that waxing would protect a showcar on display from fingering (as people insist to do at car shows). Detailers would see some positive results with wax. Again, it is that temporary abrasion resistance.

Differences between waxes based on different paint systems used? There is probably a lot of truth in that when waxing freshly refinished vehicles. There are usually varying amounts of various solvents in the different wax (or non-wax) products. Different solvents can attack different paints severely, especially when they are freshly painted. So if you are going to wax a freshly painted vehicle, it would good to figure out which products are compatible with which waxes. This will get less critical as the finish ages.

Waxing sure does make the car look better.

I do not differenciate from waxes or non-wax sealant. To me, the chemistry differences aren't really significant.

Now for single stage coatings such as 040 on Toyotas (solid white), you will need to wax to hide the oxidation of the top layer to make the car glossy again. If the oxidation is bad, then you will need to very carefully remove the top layer with polishing compound, then wax to restore the glossy look. This process will make the car look better, but won't add to the durability of the final coat as far as I know.

As I stated before, my knowledge on these things is getting dated. I have kept up with paint, but I have not kept up with waxes and related products. There may be something out there now that actually does improve long term durability of finishes. I would have to see some good data to convince me. Data from accelerated tests would not convince me.

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2010 Toyota matrix

'93 500 SEL
A bad addiction. Takes all of my cash.

'12 Volvo S80 T6
Needed something that wasn't as hard to deal with as my bad addiction

'18 Mazda Miata
No more boring cars for everyday transport!

John,

Your guidance is priceless. Thank you for clearing up the wax vs. sealant debate that has been confusing me.

Perhaps the last issue that is unclear to me is the difference b/w a rubbing compound and a polishing compound. I was looking for Meguiar's #9 to remove my oxidized paint, but only found 3-M's rubbing compound since it was labeled as 'removes mild oxidization'.

If I use the rubbing compound by hand is it as safe as a polishing compound on a buffer?

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Rubbing compound is a much more aggressive grit. Polishing compound is more of a rouge'.

Think 220 grit sandpaper on wood as rubbing compound. It gets the wood smooth but still leaves small scratches.

Polishing compound would be 0000 steel wool for that final "glassy" finish.

Rubbing compound, even applied by hand, will still leave those small scratches. Will other people notice them? Probably not but YOU will!

If you don't even own an 11" orbital buffer, much less a 7" variable speed grinder/buffer how would you know what does or doesn't work? And you are "testifying AGAINST" my advice?

I expressly recommended a 1,500 - 2,000 RPM....again, how was my advice "testifyable AGAINST?"? A 50%-50% lambswool/man-made fibers are what I recommend, to be used with water-based Wizards Products. If you haven't used this combination, again, how would you know?

I do not recommend Mequiar's products whatsoever, since they are petroleum-based. Technology is well beyond what they, OR 3M offers. If you are trying to restore the finish you described by hand, I believe you are floundering and spinning your wheels, in being effective in any way.

I have used both Meguiar's and 3M products.....they are not as effective nor as easy to use as Wizards Products. If you haven't used them, you are ignorant of how masterfully they perform versus the two you mention.

Neither hold a candle to Wizards, and I can testify, because I have used them correctly WITH a 7" variable speed buffer.

Thanks Mike,

That is very clear. Maybe doing a few runs with just polishing compound would better suit me. Part of the car is recently repainted and I just want to blend them together so it doesn't appear two-tone.

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