Diesel Fuel Storage - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

albert champion · #1 08-07-2004, 08:10 PM

i have ordered a new e320cdi.

in light of the fact that there may be significant dislocations in liquid hydrocarbon supplies within the next several years, i am considering the installation of a large underground diesel fuel storage tank.

i don't know the sizes of tanks that are routinely available at the moment, but i think that the size might have a lot to do with how well diesel fuel lives under storage conditions.

can anyone out there enlighten me?

thnx.

whunter · #2 08-07-2004, 08:42 PM

Hello albert champion
What is your projected tank capacity and estimated cost?

The cost and permits for an underground storage tank are huge.
Just the EPA annual testing is expensive.

I have recovered diesel fuel from a WW2 underground storage tank, biobombed it, filtered it and run to Texas and back with no trouble.
Keep the moisture out of your tank and filter the output, it will last for years.

I average 1400 - 2100 gallons per year on the 300SD.
I drive 500 miles per week and 3000 – 9000 vacation miles per year.
Current daily driver is a Mercedes Benz 300SD.

Tirebiter · #3 08-07-2004, 09:58 PM

There are at least two companies that make above ground concrete storage tanks.

I've seen boats sit for years without much use but their fuel was treated with Biobor. I use it any time I store diesel or get a fuel tank clogged with algae. Good stuff.

Diesel fuel was .97 a gallon at the marina yesterday. No road use taxes

Of course it would be wrong to use my fuel transfer rig

ISmellDiesel · #4 08-08-2004, 01:09 AM

....where, please, can I get Diesel for $ 0.97 per Gallon I am in SoCal too

TomJ · #5 08-08-2004, 01:29 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by whunter
Hello albert champion
What is your projected tank capacity and estimated cost?

The cost and permits for an underground storage tank are huge.
Just the EPA annual testing is expensive.

I have recovered diesel fuel from a WW2 underground storage tank, biobombed it, filtered it and run to Texas and back with no trouble.
Keep the moisture out of your tank and filter the output, it will last for years......

Yes, EPA req's for storage of fuels is rediculous. But...., no reg's (at least not EPA) on storage of vegetable oil!!

Store biodiesel instead of petro diesel. You can put some fuel preserve in it (find at the local marine store) if it makes you feel better, but it will supposedly last for years with no problems and is MUCH safer to store in qty than diesel. Flash point of Biodiesel is high enough that it's a non-flammable.

#6 08-08-2004, 10:07 AM

As of about 15 years ago, about the worst thing you could own was property that had previously been a gas station site. It cost at least $100,000 to clean up such property to satisfy the EPA. Are you SURE that taking such a risk because diesel fuel MIGHT get difficult to find is worth it? What makes you think that diesel fuel will become unavailable?

There was a drum of diesel on my place when I bought it 17 years ago. About five years ago I opened it up and it smelled fine. I started pumping it out and burned it in my tractor just to get it out of the way. It ran fine with no problems whatsoever.

Ismelldiesel,

That fuel is .97 per gallon because there is no road tax. It is highly illegal and a violation of FEDERAL law to burn it in a road vehicle.

Have a great day,

rdanz · #7 08-09-2004, 08:32 AM

Permits for underground tanks at a private homes are very hard to obtain.
Also please after you get your car keep us informed on the running of it as I have been hearing that there haviing a lot of problems with them.

dabenz · #8 08-09-2004, 08:39 AM

It's a lot cheaper (short and long run) to put in a tank above ground. Pour a slab and put up a cinder block bath tub. Discretely check your local regulations for specific requirements. You can probably legally put in an underground tank at home (the propane people are pushing it) but I don't think a lifetime of liability is worth it. In most areas the liability is yours even after you sell the property, at least for newly installed tanks.

jpmaynard · #9 08-09-2004, 04:53 PM

I would go with an aboveground tank because if a leak happens, you will see it an respond properly. You can have a heating oil company set a 550 or 275 - gallon tank on your property really cheap or just buy one from them and set it up yourself. As long as its tight, they will gladly drop road-diesel for you. Spend a weekend and construct a secondary containment dike around it so that if the valve breaks or is overfilled, you arent dealing with contaminated soil, rather some cleanup of kitty-litter.

You can do a underground tank (with a lot less hassle from the regulating community as others above would have you believe since you are private homeowner), but the big problem with underground tanks (and I know this because petro-cleanups are my daily business) is that they are going to corrode and leak or be overfilled etc.. Its just a matter of time. Tanks act as electron donors in the ground and are continuously losing mass (corrosion). Even the regulated tank community (ie. gas stations that sell to others), have substantial leaks…. and they are required to have expensive leak detection and anti-corrosion measures...Something you wouldn’t be required to have as a homeowner (but check w/your state DEQ/DEP). Permit-wise, it wouldn’t be a big deal (in my state, getting approval from a building inspector), just like having a contractor bury a heating oil tank on your property. You will incur more costs w/an underground tank……costs to pump the product from the tank up to your car. You will also pay out the ying-yang getting a backhoe on your property to bury it (especially if you have shallow bedrock)….and remove it later. Aboveground tank is easy setup and easy take-down. With an aboveground tank, you have the option of having a simple gravity flow pump as well.

As a homeowner looking to fuel his personal vehicle, you arent subject to such stringent leak detection regs etc, but you are responsible for any contamination from that tank. That’s a substantial liability depending on what state you live in. When you go to sell the property, the prospective buyer will most likely want an inspection of any underground tank and likely demand the removal of the tank before the property transfer. At which time you will most likely be determined to be the responsible party for a cleanup. I see it every day.

Save yourself big headaches and buy at the pump or store bio-d, let the majors deal with the liability. Even if fuel prices double, the costs are inconsequential compared to all the other costs of car ownership especially if you ADD more liability by storing RCRA substances on your property.

anyway hope this helps,

joel

albert champion · #10 08-09-2004, 08:12 PM

i don't know whether i like this revised site.

i like the idea of biodiesel. it is one of the reasons why i am proceeding with this acquisition of a diesel. it offers an opportunity to run a vehicle when other dino fuels become tough if not impossible to come by.

somehow, i foresee a day within the next 24 months where petroleum products are going to be very difficult[and/or very expensive] to obtain.

i could spend a great deal of time, here, discussing how it has been since jimmy carter that long-term energy plans were abandoned by the subsequent administrations, but the fact is that this country has no plans as to how hydrocarbons will be allocated/utilized.

and i can see no reason to refrain from planning for that eventuality.

while we are on the subject of hydrocarbon allocation, perhaps someone out there knows how i might learn how hydrocarbons are consumed currently. on a per annum basis. for instance,

hydrocarbons[quanta] used for petrochemical feedstocks?

hydrocarbons used for locomotive/railroad operation?

hydrocarbons used for over the road/transport diesel-engine trucks?

hydrocarbons used for over the road/transport gasoline/si trucks?

hydrocarbons used for central power plant power generation?

hydrocarbons used for residential consumption?

hydrocarbons used for industrial consumption[kilns, prime mover distributed power generation]?

hydrocarbons used for marine diesels?

hydrocarbons used for jet aircraft[private, commercial]?

hydrocarbons used for recip aircraft[private, commercial]?

hydrocarbons used for recreational marine?

hydrocarbons used for privately-owned vehicles?

hydrocarbons consumed by all military/government[muni, state, federal]?

lastly, what have you been hearing about the new benz diesels in the usa?

two years ago, i drove a e270cdi throughout france and loved the hell out of it, especially in the alps.

i am not interested in a dealership garage queen, so i am all ears.

oldnavy · #11 08-09-2004, 08:24 PM

They have been electronic grimblins, turbo related problems, and fuel filter failures. And a few have had all three.

My guess is electronic & turbo is temp problem cause by meeting different spec's for US, and whatcan I say about fuel filter failure. Out sourcing.

fj bertrand · #12 08-11-2004, 05:41 PM

Well, here in the Northeast, above ground tanks are common however, it may be hard to get diesel delivered to that tank instead of fuel oil. It may be harder to get taxed fuel to that tank unless you haul it yourself. Here in rural america, many stations sell off-road diesel for about 60c a gal less than on-road diesel. THe off road is used for home fuel or off-road use.

Kerosene is also available at most stations.

Depending where you live, it may be difficult to get a tank and the right fuel.
Off road is hi sulfur I believe thus more frequent oil changes, or more intense oil sampling to watch for acidity in your oil...

All Northeastern states exempt home tanks from any permitting. Most tanks are in the basement, not requiring a cold season blend of fuel+kerosene. In house tanks can stay warm enough to burn straight No. 2 oil in the coldest weather.

Storage though for the possibilty of a future shortage may be detrimental to your health. The SOB with the biggest gun usually walks away with the fuel and the car, and I'm not even thinking about gov't seizure for "national security reasons"

The local county Emergency Management Agency knows who has diesel tanks as the oil companies report them for "spill management" purposes...Yeah, sure.