I saw a report, last week, that the CDI has received such a good response, Mercedes is planning to import more than 3000 vehicles into the U.S.

One thing strikes me as odd, that over a 20 year period
there is only one mile/gallon difference in the around town
fuel mileage.

Yes, highway mileage is higher but the 30mpg given for
the w123 seems low.
If not mistaken I have seen mpg's posted here that
hover closer to 32mpg.
This is closer to the 37mpg for the CDI.

But I could be wrong, I need sleep, so don't quote me on this.

Louis.

On the other hand just because something is old does not imply that anything more modern is crap. Please review the stats that started this thread, the CDI is superior to a W123 on EVERY front. The only possible area where the CDI might come up a bit short is long term reliability and the ability of the shadetree mechanic to fix it without help from the dealer. These issues are for sure significant advantages of a W123 but they, IMHO, due not win the war for the W123.

I've got 250K of MB W123 Diesel ownership experience and I've driven several CDI's - they are light years ahead of a W123, W124 and even the W210 turbo.

The question for me is "what's the better value: a $56,000 CDI or a $5,600 W123?". (Or a fleet of ten nice W123's... )

For what it's worth, a 123 is immediately recognizable as an MB.

But how many people would recognize *any* of the newer MB's if you took the hood ornament off...?

- Patrick

Well sure, a 20 year old W123 for 5K is better value than a new 50K CDI.

Let's try it this way... Suppose MB called you on the phone and said that you were the winner of a contest. The prize was either...

1) a 2005 CDI

or

2) A 1982 300D turbo that had been pulled off the assembly floor immediately after it was built in 1982. The car had been gone over by the best MB technicians MB had to offer and was proclaimed to be "new"

Both cars would be offered with bumper to bumer 4 year/50K warranties.

Which would you select?

I'd take the W211 Tim. I think the reason that the W210 and W211 don't have a big following here is that their are only a few members with them. Granted when I first came on this site you could have called it a 617, 616 forum, now their is a lot of 603, 606 talk. Their are a lot of people here that like the old cars, I do to. Part of the reason the W210 isn't as popular is you can't get them for $3k yet, also most people have never actually taken one apart or spent any time in one. I have yet to drive a W211 but the W210 drives much much better then a 300D or my W126 drives. The new Merc's are nice cars. The only weakness with the W210 is rust MB screwed up with the rust proofing. No car built in the last 10-15 years should rust. My moms Olds which was a pos right off the showroom floor does not have a spec of rust on it. My Toyota was the same way, newer cars should not rust. Hopefully the W211 fixed the problem.

__________________
1999 SL500
1969 280SE
2023 Ram 1500
2007 Tiara 3200

I agree, I'm also appalled at the W210 rust issues and I own one. It's a great ride but I don't think it will ever be as popular as the W123 Diesels since only a couple thousand ever made it over to the USA. I hope the W211 reverses this trend - we need more Diesels over here.

I bet that most w210 owners aren't as much D-I-Y'ers as the rest of us here with the exception of myself. I have some across many w210 diesel's were the owners could care less about the car. They just drive it and leave it at that....

__________________
#dieselFLEET
---------------
'97 E300
'99 E300

I'd pick the 82 300D with no hesitation whatsoever. A brand new W123 diesel - that's my dream car! Just imagine how rare this car would be. The new CDI can be bought at any dealer today. Maybe this doesn't make any sense to you. For me it's not about the ride quality, quietness, acceleration or even fuel economy. It's about the character, classic looks and classic diesel clatter. I sold my brand new 02 Corvette Z06 (also a $50K+ car) because I found and fell in love with an 82 300D with over 200K miles with a busted rear window and dents from a fallen tree, and 2 years down the line I have no regrets. Enough said.

__________________
2004 VW Jetta TDI (manual)

Past MB's: '96 E300D, '83 240D, '82 300D, '87 300D, '87 420SEL

Pff, 17 second 0-60? Maybe if you just started the engine.
But yeah, that's some good low RPM torque the CDI puts out. Must be a blast to drive. Pity that it's so ugly.

No offense taken, different strokes for different folks I guess.

Go back and read my earlier post - I've got 250K miles in the W123 Diesel chassis but I don't remember it as fondly as your present experiences.

I've rebuilt two OM61X engines in W123 Diesels that I've owned, both were higher milage examples but the total of two rebuilds is exactly two more engine rebuilds than any other chassis/engine combo I've ever owned, and both engines had exactly the same failure - tapered cylinder bores after 200-300K miles. The HVAC systems are complex and highly prone to failure. Shall we talk about the vacuum controlled locks? Seat springs that break? Rust? Plastic interior trim pieces that shrink/fade after sun exposure? The W123 has a rather complex front end in comparision to the W124 and later cars - it has more moving parts and needs to be rebuilt every 150-200K miles.

Happy motoring!!

True...Time will tell, and perhaps I am being a little too harsh on the newer cars. But the older MB's were legendary from what I can recall.

The true test is what the 211 will look like after 25 years and 350 - 400K miles. Will the interior hold up to 25 years of baking in the sun? Will the plastics last as long(remember the crinkling of the W123's window frame cover)? Will the dash not crack? If a bulb goes out, will we NOT have to replace an entire instrument cluster? How about no new racks? How about reliable catalytic convertors? No strange electric brakes that need to be depressurized before servicing?

Oh well...As time marches on, I suppose improvements will be made to make these systems more reliable in the future.

Different strokes for different folks, I agree.

And that of discordance reverts to concordance. We agree to disagree. Happy motoring.

JUST FOR GIGGLES:

How many 240D W 123's were imported over the course of production to the U.S.A?

I know that my '97 W210 has 2,494 brothers in the U.S. So over the four year run from 96-99 not many more than 10K vehicles!!! but dont have that fact handy.

I know there is an expert that knows the answer!

Interesting thread.

I would agree, a CDI would be grand but I want to see the first two years of service history.

I have owned a '82 300SD and a '87 300D (cracked head at 190K, put to rest)

TIA, Bob

I have not had the opportunity to test drive the new CDI yet but hope to one day. Anyway, for some reason I am alot more comfortable driving an under $5k car that I just carry liability insurance on. I refer to them as "give a s$^% cars.

If MB called and offered me a brand new CDI and a brand new W123 I would go with the CDI. I've already got a "brand new" W123 (81k miles). I would cring everytime I sent that check to the insurance company for the coverage on the CDI though.

__________________
Jim

I guess all cars have their problems but you are talking
about a 20+year old car.
And the price of one of these repairs probably would
fix all those problems you mentioned.


[QUOTEpurchased a new Mercedes Benz 2003 E320 in January 2003. I quickly went from the feeling of having a quality dependable car to knowing I had a $58,000 piece of junk. I was polite for 12 months, and followed all the service procedures of Park Place Mercedes and Mercedes Benz. Every time something broke, I took the car in and took my loaner car for 1-8 days and just waited for them to do the repairs.

Six months ago, I began calling more then just the dealership to complain about the problems with the car, I started calling Mercedes Benz corporate customer complaint center in New Jersey @ 1-800-367-6372. They sent out their regional mechanic to review the car and he found a few electrical components on that car that were failing and had to be replaced as well as, he did a "flash upgrade" to every computer system in the car that could be upgraded. Then, they gave it back to me and said, "We are confident, you shouldn't have anymore problems with your car". Since then, a valet left my car light on and the battery died, MB roadside service came out and jumped my car and told me leave it running for 45 minutes to recharge. I did, after using the car for 3 days, the car went into powersave mode again on its own. It seems that the MB 2003 E320, is not able to fully recharge its own battery, once it has been discharged beyond a certain level. I took the car in, because I was getting power failure warnings on the screen. They took the battery out of the car and recharged it on a machine, then put it back into the car and told me everything would be fine now, they could not explain why the car could not recharge its own battery, but they found nothing wrong with the battery or the cars recharging system, even though the discharged battery warning was on the dash screen when the Park Place service department checked the car in and I showed the warning message to them.

Since then, all interior lights have failed once, but the dealership says they have no explanation for the interior power failure, but everything seems fine. Also, my parktronics go off every time it rains, they have been replaced once and still do the following, if I drive slow in the rain, the double red warning lights come on and they buzz solid. The double red warning lights are only supposed to come on, once you actually run into a solid object. This is in addition to the paint washing off my parktronic the first time I was in a rainstorm and was left with bare copper circles on my front bumper that the dealership had to repaint.

My throttle control system failed earlier this year which left me sitting in the middle of multiple intersections and in front of other moving traffic, with a 20 second delay on acceleration, that turned out to be a short in the throttle electronics. The main computer in front has been replaced once, the computer in back, has been replaced twice, my stereo system has been replaced multiple times, for a "popping noise" in temperatures of between 89-92 degree and complete fiber optics failure in the car at 92 degrees with a warning on the radio display, of the fiber optics failure to communicate to the rest of the car. I have had a special fan installed in the Audio Gateway to allow it to run in outside temperatures in excess of 89 degrees. The CD player has seized up once and they had to force it open to get my CDs out to put a new CD player in it. One of my key fobs also failed this year, they replaced the battery once, and then, the second time, they gave up and ordered a key fob. My complete instrument panel has been replaced once due to "unexplained error messages" according to the MB Regional Technical. My MB SOS system has deactivated itself twice in the past 12 months and I had to call MB assistance to have them connect to my car and reactive the system remotely.

Mercedes Benz has offered $10,000 toward a trade-in, because of my never ending electrical failures in the car and the dealership has offered to sell me another car at invoice, but they still want me to pay another $5,000 another car and sign a new 4 year lease, since a new Mercedes looses $20,000 in value in the first year. Here is the kicker, they gave me another car (2004 E320) to test drive and consider as my replacement car for the lemon car, but when I took it for the test drive, the passengers electronic seat was broken and would not turn off, once the pulse button was touched. The only way to stop the seat, was to turn the car off!!!.

This has led me to sue Park Place Mercedes and Mercedes Benz to terminate my lease and assume all depreciation costs and release me from this Mercedes Benz nightmare. [/QUOTE]

This comes from www.lemonmb.com and is just one
of many.
Most of these problems return multiple times and are often
things that have been around for many years.
Like ill fiting interior panels, panels falling off , electronics
that conck out and lastly brakes that just stop working
without a back up.(scary).

They just don't make them like they used to.
And MB still charges premium prices for below par
automobiles and service.

Any car is only as good as its usability, a car that spends
more time in a service bay than in your driveway is not
a fun and userfriendly vehicle.


Louis.