Why the h___ is Diesel a $1.97 now? - Page 2 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

KCampbell · #16 10-03-2004, 01:31 AM

I don't know why the prices for diesel and gasoline fluctuate out of sequence the way they do, other than the higher price for winter fuel supposedly due to extra additives.

It did just strike me that the dollar is much weaker now than it was 3 years ago, and that accounts for probably $0.10 to $0.20 per gallon of price creep. Devaluation of the dollar on the currency exchanges means that $1 no longer buys what it used to, so the producers need to receive more of them per barrel. Really adopting a "strong dollar" monetary policy ( as opposed to just saying you support it) would undoubtedly bring down the price of a barrel of crude, but at the price of increased imports (difficult to concieve given how big the trade imbalance already is) and exports that would be more expensive.

Just another thought.

Kevin

H-townbenzoboy · #17 10-03-2004, 01:44 AM

Just a week ago, I filled up the 300SD at the Mobil truck stop at I-45 North and W. Rittenhouse Rd, and it was $1.88 a gallon. Today, I filled up the 300D at the Pilot truck stop at I-45 North and Patton St., and it cost $1.99 a gallon. Riding around town today, the lowest diesel price I saw was $1.93 at the Texaco truck stop at 288 South and Almeda-Genoa Rd.
-Joe

Ken300D · #18 10-03-2004, 10:33 AM

I heard a news story this morning, and some people are predicting $3.00 a gallon regular gasolene for next summer's peak driving season.

The story also said that refiners are way behind on their production of home heating oil at this time (and why would that be - doesn't it get cold EVERY year?) that that if we have an early, cold winter, home heating oil will double in price. Since diesel is essentially the same as home heating oil, I presume it may double in price too.

I live far enough out that I can heat my home with firewood in a very efficient wood stove. I expect this to get more popular this year, at least for people who have a "free" source of firewood. The problem I expect to eventually face is some kind of legislation to outlaw personal wood burning.

Tree huggers and all. Not that they would realize that natural forest fires caused by lightning produce far more pollution, etc.

Or, perhaps I will need to get an annual stove and chimney "inspection" with a license to burn wood. And a tax. Etc Etc.

Ken300D

bill murrow · #19 10-03-2004, 10:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ken300D

I heard a news story this morning, and some people are predicting $3.00 a gallon regular gasolene for next summer's peak driving season.

The story also said that refiners are way behind on their production of home heating oil at this time (and why would that be - doesn't it get cold EVERY year?) that that if we have an early, cold winter, home heating oil will double in price. Since diesel is essentially the same as home heating oil, I presume it may double in price too.

I live far enough out that I can heat my home with firewood in a very efficient wood stove. I expect this to get more popular this year, at least for people who have a "free" source of firewood. The problem I expect to eventually face is some kind of legislation to outlaw personal wood burning.

Tree huggers and all. Not that they would realize that natural forest fires caused by lightning produce far more pollution, etc.

Or, perhaps I will need to get an annual stove and chimney "inspection" with a license to burn wood. And a tax. Etc Etc.

Ken300D

We were trying to build more refineries but the pres at the time [we won't mention names here] was siding with the tree huggers resulting in no new facilties.

We burn wood here in our old victorian farmhouse and pray no legislation like you mentioned happens. Hope there are no politicians that might get new ideas from this discussion. Ah, they probably already thought of it anyway..

Cheers,

Bill

psfred · #20 10-03-2004, 11:36 AM

Never forget the possibility of price gouging....

I've heard a number of reasons for no new refineries, and they all boil down to the oil companies not building them because they choose not to. Recovery of the vapors emitted simply means burning considerably less fuel for heat -- this is done in several plants that I know of, and it's a considerable savings over disposal, so you can pretty much toss out the idea that environmental rules inhibit refinery construction.

World oil production is just about maxed out for at least the time being (takes quite a while to build storage and transport infrastructure), demand is increasing dramatically, the US is pretty well tapped out, and the old Standard Oil monopoly is just about completely reconstructed -- what do you think is gonna happen?

I'm afraid we can look forward to rather dramatic price fluctuations, with some steep spikes, but the base price is never gonna come down. I've seen predictions that oil will hit $100 a barrel by the end of the decade. I would guess much sooner just because everything is going full blast right now, and there are too many chances of disruption in the "chain". Nigeria has lots of possiblibities, Iraq is gonna suffer from pipeline sabatoge for the forseeable future, Saudi Arabia has some serious domestic upheavals boiling just under the surface, and China and India are sucking down oil like crazy. It won't take much of a shortage to really cause havoc.

This whole senario was laid out by my uncle, a geologist for Phillips Petroleum, in the late 1960s. Predictions at the time were for US oil to pretty much run out in about 2000-2010. There is some reserve in the US, but most of it is thin road tar like the local stuff here (currently selling for $44.25 a barrel instead fo the $7.00 it was ten years ago), and it is finite and rather limited.

Think ahead and think gas stingy. Biodiesel is an alternative, but not with our current agriculture -- it takes way too much diesel fuel to raise a crop for there to be enough "left over" to supply the US with fuel.

Peter

#21 10-04-2004, 12:13 AM

I am far from an expert on this, but my understanding is that the current prices result from a combination of factors. Obvious ones such as the high cost of crude, and the winter heating oil season. For some time European refineries have been shipping Gasoline to the USofA, as they have a higher demand for diesel then gasoline, but the ratio of these two and other fuels (kerosene, heating oil, etc) are supposedly somewhat fixed in the sense of what ratio of one they can produce to another. This "dumping" of gasoline by "Euro" refineries has supposedly kept Gasoline prices artificially low in the USofA. The way it was explained to me is this ratio is fairly fixed when a refinery is built, and it costs big bucks to modify the production and thus the refinery to change this.

I wonder if US Refiners just might be shipping Diesel abroad? Another factor I really wonder about is the introduction of 50ppm low sulpher diesel, according to the local injection shop, many gas stations in my area are selling this low sulpher diesel. I would suspect this might cost a bit more to produce either in crude oil costs or refining, and even if it does not cost more, I would suspect the oil companies to use it as an excuse to charge more.

Sure would be nice to hear someon who has the inside scoop give their opinion on this.

boneheaddoctor · #22 10-04-2004, 08:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by psfred

Never forget the possibility of price gouging....

I've heard a number of reasons for no new refineries, and they all boil down to the oil companies not building them because they choose not to. Recovery of the vapors emitted simply means burning considerably less fuel for heat -- this is done in several plants that I know of, and it's a considerable savings over disposal, so you can pretty much toss out the idea that environmental rules inhibit refinery construction.

World oil production is just about maxed out for at least the time being (takes quite a while to build storage and transport infrastructure), demand is increasing dramatically, the US is pretty well tapped out, and the old Standard Oil monopoly is just about completely reconstructed -- what do you think is gonna happen?

I'm afraid we can look forward to rather dramatic price fluctuations, with some steep spikes, but the base price is never gonna come down. I've seen predictions that oil will hit $100 a barrel by the end of the decade. I would guess much sooner just because everything is going full blast right now, and there are too many chances of disruption in the "chain". Nigeria has lots of possiblibities, Iraq is gonna suffer from pipeline sabatoge for the forseeable future, Saudi Arabia has some serious domestic upheavals boiling just under the surface, and China and India are sucking down oil like crazy. It won't take much of a shortage to really cause havoc.

This whole senario was laid out by my uncle, a geologist for Phillips Petroleum, in the late 1960s. Predictions at the time were for US oil to pretty much run out in about 2000-2010. There is some reserve in the US, but most of it is thin road tar like the local stuff here (currently selling for $44.25 a barrel instead fo the $7.00 it was ten years ago), and it is finite and rather limited.

Think ahead and think gas stingy. Biodiesel is an alternative, but not with our current agriculture -- it takes way too much diesel fuel to raise a crop for there to be enough "left over" to supply the US with fuel.

Peter

The envioromentalist lobby has been pushing hard and heavy for the last 25 years to keep ANY more refineries from being built. Now they are at capacity.

And guess what the environazi lobby drives as a vehicle of choice? BIG SUV vehicles. And most of these people live IN the city.

whunter · #23 10-04-2004, 09:13 AM

It is your fault boneheaddoctor.

The only reason they raised fuel prices was to tick you off.

How is your cardiac medication coping?

I blew a gasket at the fuel station pump price, and go in for surgery tomorrow.

boneheaddoctor · #24 10-04-2004, 09:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by whunter

It is your fault boneheaddoctor.

The only reason they raised fuel prices was to tick you off.

How is your cardiac medication coping?

I blew a gasket at the fuel station pump price, and go in for surgery tomorrow.

Oh the ticker is fine, pressure is a bit high. Dang between double digit tax increases every year on my house and this I am convinced there is a conspirocy to wipe out the middle class.

Carrameow · #25 10-04-2004, 11:11 AM

we will all be better off. Everytime I sit on the Turnpike in a traffic jam with a 1000 other cars on the Turnpike, I marvel how much gas is being wasted by SUV's carrying ONE PERSON idling for 45 minutes. I also realize that this scene is being repeated simultaneously in some 10000 locations on this planet..and this earth can only take so much of this waste of its resouces and hydrocarbon pollution. Electric cars will reduce everyone's dependence on oil, put an at least a dent in Oil Geopolitics and warfare to support it, and offer some hope that we humans are advancing and will not destroy ourselves or this Planet for our CHILDREN... I think we diesel heads, being generally an openminded, "think-different" and being technically smart and aslo practical, will embrace Electric Cras and we will meet 20 years from now on the MERCEDES SHOP ELECTRIC CAR FORUM :p

KCampbell · #26 10-04-2004, 11:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by boneheaddoctor

Oh the ticker is fine, pressure is a bit high. Dang between double digit tax increases every year on my house and this I am convinced there is a conspirocy to wipe out the middle class.

On this we can agree. Follow this pattern:

Eliminate the income tax on stock dividends, which ensures that those who are wealthy enough to own stock in companies can profit from the increased productivity of those companies. What does increased productivity mean? Producing more goods and services for less cost. How is that achieved? By moving labor to a cheaper location, or by getting more work out of the domestic labor pool without paying them more for it. Why would someone work more without extra pay? Because they are scared that their job will move overseas.

Next, work to eliminate the Estate tax. This ensures that wealth can be inherited and grow, unearned, from one generation to the next. As the National Union of Farmers pointed out last year, Estate taxes have nothing to do with family farms who are nothing but political pawns in this debate. The inherited wealth is invested in the stock market where it produces a tax free income. When I buy a share of stock on the market the price I pay goes to the current holder of the stock, not the company itself. Such investment in the market does nothing to encourage business growth.

The percentage of Federal Tax revenue derived from corporation taxes has steadily declined over the years. In 2003 Corporation taxes represented 7.3% of federal tax revenue, the lowest figure since 1934 (with the exception of 1983). Lower federal taxes on corporations increases the dividend payable to shareholders, which is now tax free etc.

The wealthy ruling class does not particularly want a comfortable, educated, middle class that can only get uppity with ideas above it's station. What we are moving towards is a form of inherited wealth and power not unlike the landed gentry and aristocracy in England during times gone by.

In case it's not clear, I don't feel that George II is going to do anything to help stem the demise of the middle class

Kevin

boneheaddoctor · #27 10-04-2004, 11:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KCampbell

On this we can agree. Follow this pattern:

Eliminate the income tax on stock dividends, which ensures that those who are wealthy enough to own stock in companies can profit from the increased productivity of those companies. What does increased productivity mean? Producing more goods and services for less cost. How is that achieved? By moving labor to a cheaper location, or by getting more work out of the domestic labor pool without paying them more for it. Why would someone work more without extra pay? Because they are scared that their job will move overseas.

Next, work to eliminate the Estate tax. This ensures that wealth can be inherited and grow, unearned, from one generation to the next. As the National Union of Farmers pointed out last year, Estate taxes have nothing to do with family farms who are nothing but political pawns in this debate. The inherited wealth is invested in the stock market where it produces a tax free income. When I buy a share of stock on the market the price I pay goes to the current holder of the stock, not the company itself. Such investment in the market does nothing to encourage business growth.

The percentage of Federal Tax revenue derived from corporation taxes has steadily declined over the years. In 2003 Corporation taxes represented 7.3% of federal tax revenue, the lowest figure since 1934 (with the exception of 1983). Lower federal taxes on corporations increases the dividend payable to shareholders, which is now tax free etc.

The wealthy ruling class does not particularly want a comfortable, educated, middle class that can only get uppity with ideas above it's station. What we are moving towards is a form of inherited wealth and power not unlike the landed gentry and aristocracy in England during times gone by.

In case it's not clear, I don't feel that George II is going to do anything to help stem the demise of the middle class

Kevin

And the Billionare Kerry isn't going to think about himself first and screw everyone else?

I am damned sick of 10-16% annual increaces on property taxes.
My paycheck has only increased on the average of 3% which in my job sector is good considering how many people don't have jobs right now.

Add in the people who advocate increasing my taxes I have to pay on fuel I get downright ticked off. Teachers whining they aren't paid enough yet they get much more increaces than I get and yet students scores keep dropping.

Greed simple pure greed.

The people who advocate increasing ANY taxes should be the very people who have to pay twice as much as anyone else. Remember at the bottom of your tax returns......I'll bet NONE of these people who are wallowing in money have given one extra cent to reduce government debt.

I don't drive a huge SUV, I do have a Truck, but it only gets driven when I need to use a truck. So it sees less than 2,000 miles a year. Look at the Women who NEED a Ford Expedition to drop their 1 year old off at daycare......and thats their only kid. And live in the city and have never seen a farm much less been off road.

Thats the main souce of waste. Sorry to rant and rave.

Old300D · #28 10-04-2004, 11:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by psfred

Think ahead and think gas stingy. Biodiesel is an alternative, but not with our current agriculture -- it takes way too much diesel fuel to raise a crop for there to be enough "left over" to supply the US with fuel.

Peter

Biodiesel is an excellent alternative. You are wrong that it takes more fuel to produce biodiesel than it takes to grow it. You get a nearly three-fold increase. Also, there are options for producing oil stocks that do not compete with food. And all the farm equipment used in oil stock growth can use biodiesel. It is far more energy efficient than ethanol production.

Biodiesel from algae

If the government can get off the big oil teat long enough to merely let fuel prices reflect the true costs to producing and distributing it, biodiesel would be price competetive.

whunter · #29 10-04-2004, 12:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Old300D

Biodiesel is an excellent alternative. You are wrong that it takes more fuel to produce biodiesel than it takes to grow it. You get a nearly three-fold increase. Also, there are options for producing oil stocks that do not compete with food. And all the farm equipment used in oil stock growth can use biodiesel. It is far more energy efficient than ethanol production.

Biodiesel from algae

If the government can get off the big oil teat long enough to merely let fuel prices reflect the true costs to producing and distributing it, biodiesel would be price competetive.

The government will never leave the oil teat, to many of them hold stock.

whunter · #30 10-04-2004, 12:45 PM

The size 13 ego, gloom and doom mongers, tree huggers and pseudoscience crowd are winning.

Fact:
The total output of every engine ever made by man + all coal burning throughout history to this date; will not equal five minutes peak eruption of one volcano.

Fact:
All CFC's ever produced by man, don't = 3% of the CFC output from either the Atlantic or Pacific Ocean beaches in one day.

Fact:
There is more oil today than there was 100 years ago, the compost cycle does not stop for anyone, and will continue till the sun goes Nova.

Fact:
There are fewer oil companies and refineries in the USA than there where fifty years ago.

Fact:
There are only a few oil mega corporations left in the world today, and they are all owned by the same single basic control group, follow the money trail.

Fact:
The anti oil environmental lobby has been repeatedly subsidized by oil mega corporations as a way to kill small operators.

Fact:
Electric cars are ok for local driving = under 300 miles in 24 hours, anything more uses them up like candy, they are worthless for heavy load hauling, the batteries create hazards worse than current cars and cost more than the vehicle, due to massive amperage and voltage they are a danger to work on, the charging infrastructure will cost 300 times what the current infrastructure did and will take 50 – 75 years to deploy, the infrastructure will be obsolete before it is even deployed.

Fact:
Humans are advancing and will not destroy ourselves or this Planet, unless the Oceans are killed or some idiot nukes everyone.

Fact:
Our children will be just fine, if we raise them right = morals, values, judgment and spirit to stand up for themselves.

Fact:
The last news man to report news was Walter Cronkite; all others are ratings propaganda talking heads, who obey orders and say what they are told to.

Gadzooks; Is there anyone I missed offending.
Keep driving diesel or vegetable fuel and act on your beliefs.
Hug and spank your kids as needed, kiss your spouse and thank God you are on this side of the grass.
Oh, and stop watching that depressing, hyper sensational, news show, you will live longer without the stress.