Hybrid vs turbodiesel energy consumption - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

hos280 · #1 10-16-2004, 10:08 PM

I have a semi-MB diesel related question for the group.

I heard about a study that Volkswagen did concerning the hybrid battery manufacturing and energy consumption. I desperately want to find this study.

They claim that the manufacturing of the hybrid batteries is terribly wasteful in energy and creates toxic waste, and that the hybrids, as they are made today, pollute more and waste more energy than the hi-mileage turbodiesels if you consider the "crade to grave" energy consumption etc.

The waste and energy consumption is front-end loaded in that the consumer doesn't see this wasted energy. And that if you consider it in this "crade to grave" fashion, the TD's are more energy effiecient and pollute less over the lifetime from inception to retirement of a car. They claim the hybrid is a marketing gig to sell cars.

I heard this from a German engineer who works for mercedes, but he could not give me a reference of the study.

anybody else heard of this study or the argument?

compress ignite · #2 10-16-2004, 10:38 PM

REMEMBER the Hindenberg ! (Lakehurst N.J. Hydrogen filled Zepplin Explodes)

#1 European T.D.'s actually burn cleaner than our U.S. Gasoline vehicles.
#2 The oil companies in conjunction with DETROIT hope to ENSLAVE us
(and maintain control of domestic automotive fuels) with the whole
HYDROGEN Bushwa.
#3 American O.E.M.'s cannot produce competitive auto-diesels so HOOD-
WINK (by legislative lobbiests and other controls) the U.S. consumer
into Hydrogen Fuel Cell Vehicles.
#4 V.W. produces a Hatchback for the German Market that gets 90 M.P.G.
Straight turbo-diesel 3 CYL, mated to a 5 SPD automatic.
#5 Think about a Diesel-Electric Hybrid........

Brian Carlton · #3 10-16-2004, 10:56 PM

I'd also be curious as to the "cradle to grave" cost of fuel and parts for the hybrid vs. a typical diesel. The hybrid may get better fuel economy, but, what is the cost of those batteries and how often do you need to change them?

rg2098 · #4 10-16-2004, 11:07 PM

I've always wondered how effiecient a diesel-electric hybird (essentially what trains have been using for decades) would be. In other words, a smaller diesel motor would turn a generator making power for electic motors that would physically propel the vehicle.

The Warden · #5 10-17-2004, 02:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hos280

They claim that the manufacturing of the hybrid batteries is terribly wasteful in energy and creates toxic waste, and that the hybrids, as they are made today, pollute more and waste more energy than the hi-mileage turbodiesels if you consider the "crade to grave" energy consumption etc.

The waste and energy consumption is front-end loaded in that the consumer doesn't see this wasted energy. And that if you consider it in this "crade to grave" fashion, the TD's are more energy effiecient and pollute less over the lifetime from inception to retirement of a car. They claim the hybrid is a marketing gig to sell cars.

Never heard the study, but I've certainly heard this arguement before. I think whoever came up with it is right on the $$, PARTICULARLY with the environmental impact issues regarding the hybrid's battery. I would love to see that study, so I can use it as evidence...particularly since most of my family is "green" and thinks that hybrids are the best thing since sliced-bread (and thinks I'm actively killing fluffy bunnies with my "gross-polluting" diesels).

Quote:

Originally Posted by rg2098

I've always wondered how effiecient a diesel-electric hybird (essentially what trains have been using for decades) would be. In other words, a smaller diesel motor would turn a generator making power for electic motors that would physically propel the vehicle.

This makes a lot of sense to me...it's not very difficult to build a diesel with a very narrow power band, and have it set up as a "constant-speed" engine, where it turns at a set RPM and is made to be very fuel efficient at that RPM. Why are so many gensets diesel-powered?

Also, if you put an electric motor at each wheel instead of a single motor, and hook it up to a good traction-control setup, you could have the ultimate AWD

JamesStein · #6 10-17-2004, 03:20 PM

A quick good search on 'diesel electric hybrid'

Turned up some interesting stuff. Lots of Diesel-Electric busses out there.

Also a pretty decent article discussing diesel-electric hybrids..
http://www.dieselforum.org/whitepaper/downloads/diesel-electric.pdf

hos280 · #7 10-17-2004, 05:18 PM

The engineer that told me that story, had struck my attention when he mentioned that VW offers this 90 mpg TD to the german market only.

WHY CAN'T WE GET ONE!!!!!!

i consider myself green ,but only 2nd to science. if the numbers don't add up, it aint green

.

i wiil find this study by VW.

Angel · #8 10-18-2004, 08:37 PM

Why cant we get one ? its probably (I dont know for sure) in a little car called the polo, that makes the Scion xB look like an S-class.
I would LOVE for vw to bring its line of small cars to the US, but the cost to get them emissions/crash certified is too much, and they would never sell enough to justify the attempt.

Maybe in 5 or 10 years we might wake up and see that its not that bad...

-John

hos280 · #9 10-18-2004, 09:46 PM

This is unbelievable!!!!

The Volkswagen Lupo 3L TDI has once again proved itself as the world’s most fuel efficient production car by setting yet another record. Gerhard Plattner, an Austrian journalist and economy driving expert, has, for the second time this year, entered the Guinness World Records™ Book in a Volkswagen. Earlier this month Plattner covered a distance of 2,910 miles through 20 European countries in a standard Lupo 3L TDI. He achieved his aim of completing this journey – which started in Oslo, Norway and finished in The Hague in The Netherlands – with just 100 euros worth of fuel. In fact, all he required was 90.94 euros, which corresponds to an average consumption of 2.78 litres per 100 km (101.6 mpg).

Plattner completed his first successful ‘100 euro eco-tour’ in August this year in a Polo TDI, over 1,944 miles through 15 European countries. The average fuel consumption set over this distance was just 3.95 litres per 100 km (71.5 mpg) with fuel costs of 90.89 euros.

Both of these record journeys were by no means carried out at an unrealistically slow pace. The average speed of the first economy run was 51 mph while the average speed of the Lupo 3L TDI was 50 mph. Each eco-tour was accompanied and monitored by independent experts.

The Lupo 3L TDI is no stranger to the record books. In 2001, a Japanese economy driver, Dr Miyano, used it to set a new world record for the most frugal circumnavigation of Britain in a standard diesel production car, with an average fuel economy figure of 119.48 mpg. In 2000, a ‘Round the World in 80 days’ journey produced 118 mpg, while a Lupo TDI has won outright the RAC/Fleet World MPG Marathon for three years in succession.

Volkswagen’s most economical production car has also recently been placed top for the fourth time in a row, in an environmental car ranking by the prestigious German institute ‘Öko-Trend’. This was due not only to its exceptional economy, but also through the environmental consideration demonstrated during the Lupo’s production.

Another place in the Guinness World Records™ Book is a major endorsement of Volkswagen’s PD (‘Pumpe Düse’ or unit injector) TDI technology. This system, which uses an individual pump and injector for each cylinder, develops much more injection pressure than common rail, leading to greater efficiency. The Lupo 3L TDI (which is available in Europe in left-hand drive form) uses a 1.2-litre TDI PD diesel engine, combined with extensive use of lightweight components and automatic operation of its clutch and five speed gearbox. It is the world’s first production car to achieve average consumption of less than three litres per 100 km, which accounts for the ‘3L’ designation in the model’s name.

This advanced unit injector technology is used throughout Volkswagen’s UK range, from the Lupo 1.4 TDI – which has a combined economy figure of 64.2 mpg – right up to the Touareg’s exceptional 5.0 litre V10 TDI, the world’s most powerful passenger car diesel engine to date.

http://vortex3.rely.net/artman/publish/volkswagen_news/article_498.shtml

hos280 · #10 10-18-2004, 09:59 PM

if anyone is interested, here is a link to a study where a guy drove a high mileage TD jetta from detroit to DC, and a Prius hydbrid back. the verdict....

well you will have to read.

http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=1443616

83-240D · #11 10-19-2004, 11:34 AM

so whats the big deal about mileage. on the only hwy trip i have made so far my car took the 83 miles pump to pump with only 2.002 gal of fuel. and it is roomier than either car. and cost a hell of a lot less. okay its in the shop today but in a couple of days..........

tomm9298 · #12 10-19-2004, 02:37 PM

I found this at www.fueleconomy.gov .
Diesel fuel contains approximatley 10% more energy per gallon than gasoline. Hybrids, batteries are nice, yet when they are depleted must be disposed of, non-renewable. I assume they are lead/acid type, this creates a hazardous waste problem. A blend of WVO and diesel offers the best of both worlds.

tenknots · #13 10-19-2004, 03:21 PM

The big advantage hybrids have is that they can capture energy with regenerative braking - reversing the drive motors to function as brakes. Their real value is in stop and go driving, not highway driving. A diesel hybrid makes the most sense in that regard.

If one is speaking of cradle to grave environmental costs, I submit that driving a 23-year old car like my 300SD that is relatively fuel efficient and will likely last many more years is far more environmentally responsible than the highest efficiency new car. Our cars have already used the resources to build them years ago - in effect already recycled. There is very little new steel, plastic or rubber that is used to operate an older car. Until new cars are completely and easily recyclable, they can't approach the environmental efficiency of a one that is already built.

Rick Miley · #14 10-19-2004, 03:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rg2098

I've always wondered how effiecient a diesel-electric hybird (essentially what trains have been using for decades) would be. In other words, a smaller diesel motor would turn a generator making power for electic motors that would physically propel the vehicle.

The Mercedes-Benz diesel hybrid is here.

Hatterasguy · #15 10-19-2004, 04:12 PM

Diesel electric power systems have been around on the water for many many years. The German U boats used them. Modern tugboats use it and it is a few pleasue boats have tried it. Also large equipment uses this system, the Cat 797 dump truck for example. A diesel engine driving a generator at a constant speed is extremly efficent. Also you can put an electric motor on each shaft of a boat or on each wheel of a car. You get a very light and simple drivetrain this way. Also extremly reliable and hard to break!