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-   -   "Why can't we have modern diesel cars here?" (http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/diesel-discussion/106805-why-cant-we-have-modern-diesel-cars-here.html)

jmfitzger 10-31-2004 11:16 AM

Is it Capitalist vs Environmentalist
 
It is not just CARB. Three other states outlaw diesel engine cars. One is New York I donít know the other two. I believe CA and NY are the two most populous states. MB, and probably other car companies are reluctant to import to the US with such limited market access.

Now both MB and Volkswagen appear to be positioning their diesel products in the hope of braking through the State imposed barriers; Mercedes with Jeep Liberty and E320 CDI and soon Volkswagen with an expanded offering to include the V10 diesel Toureg (faster than a Cayenne). The thousands of MB Sprinters now operated by FedEx and UPS are likely to help build the credibility of diesel cars as being clean, efficient and durable.

If demand for diesel were suddenly as strong here as in Europe, and Americans were allowed to buy diesel cars at the same rate, The American Auto and Oil companies would be in trouble. Detroit would be in far deeper trouble because they are not ready to build diesel cars. They have failed to develop the technology. The oil companies would be much more adaptable. We have seen time and again that motor fuel prices are easily manipulated under the guise of 'supply and demand' response.

If one can be a moral capitalist, an environmentalist, a darwinist, a republican, and a patriot all at once, then one might think that Detroit should either adapt or die. And furthermore, that any lobbying activity or other political activity of great consequence to our nation, such as fuel choice, should be done in a free and open manner.

A close examination of the state agencies that are putting the diesel barriers in place is in order. Of special interest will be the special interests who lobby them. I will be shocked if there is no Motown presence. I will appreciate any guidance on how to sort them out.

Dervman 10-31-2004 11:30 AM

No question that particulates are a concern with diesel emissions, but there are technical solutions and many of the new European diesels have Particulate Filters built into their exhaust system.

To put matters into perspective however, it would take a huge number of people to convert to diesel cars before there was any significant increase in measurable particulate emissions. That is because the majority of the problems come from all the big Diesel trucks and railway locomotives, etc., all of which are pretty much EXEMPT from any emissions regulation.

New technology Diesel cars have relatively low emissions, are far more economical and will pollute far less than gasoline SUV's getting much lower MPG's. As usual California (and other states) have taken a small specific issue that keeps them in the headlines, while ignoring the bigger picture of Industrial and Commercial-Vehicle pollution which continues almost unchecked.

Another reason that The Domestic manufacturers are not pushing Diesel technology is the general public's long memories over the GM Diesel engine fiasco of the eighties!! :(

Let's hope the cleaner low sulphur diesel fuel (although nowhere near as clean as current European standards) in 2006 will encourage more manufacturers to make diesel models available.

boneheaddoctor 10-31-2004 12:00 PM

Don't blame it all on GM, most people didn't like the smell of diesel and the slugishness of the older diesels, and then there was the noise.

It didn't appeal to everone.

And about CARB.......bunch of extremists. Like I said a little enviromentalism is a good thing, but they take things WAY TOO FAR. And the 3 other states???????? Libreal strongholds......does that tell you anything.

psfred 10-31-2004 01:32 PM

The objection to diesels is soot (particulates) - very carcinogenic and implicated in the vast increase in asthma in cities (which is very real, and quite a health problem).

Typically, the main problem is NOT modern diesels, but older trucks and off road vehicles -- I've seen an old Mack truck blow more smoke in first gear on one takeoff than all my diesel (including the Volvo, with is very smoky) make in a year.

The kicker to all this (and the main reason that you will see more diesels, I think) is that GASSERS make almost as much particulates, all metal oxides (some of which are both toxic AND carcinogenic) per gallon of fuel, and they are ALL "breathable", unlke most diesel soot (that is, they penetrate deeply into the lungs and don't come back up easily).

The idea is correct, but the science is iffy. Older diesels are very polluting in terms of soot, but modern ones, especially if run on at least partial biofuels, are not.

The soot is why the 85-87 MB diesels had a trap oxidizer, and have replacement trap catalysts. All other automotive diesels have something similar, otherwise they won't pass particulates emission standards.

The standards are NOT unreasonable -- I would personally much rather take the buss and train to work, plus walk two miles to do it, than die in a couple years from lung cancer.....

Peter

boneheaddoctor 10-31-2004 03:16 PM

I think The Peoples republic of Kalifornia stardards ARE ridiculous. And the other three Liberal havens....

The Standards the rest of the country have I am fine with.

Like I said a little enviromentalism is fine ..........just like a Little whiskey is fine, its when you go overboard like those places went it becomes a problem.

83-240D 10-31-2004 03:36 PM

you wnat that diesel???/ read this
 
what do you want? TDi Jetta, Golf, Passat? Well there is a dealer here is town that has tons of them right now!! boucher vw on washington(rte 20) in racine wis. pay for the car, title it to me and i will drive it for you the first 7500 miles and deliver it to you and sign the title to you.

i will even buy my own fuel and burn b20 or b100 in it for you after the dino is gone. i can plan the trip so i hit bio stations all the way across the country. as a matter of fact i have the trip planed from racine to santa rosa to visiit the in laws if i ever get enought time off from the school bus driving gig.

pay my airfare home and thats it. no cavier, no champagne, no first class just airfare.

you can reach me at the email on my profile. one customer at a time please.

The Warden 10-31-2004 03:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by psfred
The objection to diesels is soot (particulates) - very carcinogenic and implicated in the vast increase in asthma in cities (which is very real, and quite a health problem).

Where is this coming from?

Last I checked, the CARB was at the front of this chant, and the EPA actually went os far as to state that the CARB's research was BS. The EPA didn't go so far as to state that diesel exhaust doesn't cause cancer, but they did specifically say that a lot more research was needed than what little the CARB had done.

Given the CARB's agenda plus this, I would take anything coming from their office with a huge grain of salt at this point...

JMHO...

psfred 10-31-2004 06:58 PM

California's air pollution laws are anything but excessive -- all you have to do is sit on Mt. Baldy and watch the brownish black air blow up the valley to understand just how bad the air really is. You can SEE the air it's so bad.

Suburbs and freeways should have been banned in the 50's out there.

Before you complain about the environmental laws, you should experience the consequences of not having them -- changes your mind a bit.

Peter

whunter 10-31-2004 08:12 PM

This topic is a waste of space.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by psfred
Peter

There is nothing that will change, stop, moderate or slow the power of CARB.
CARB tells the Governor and the EPA what will happen!!!
One of the many reasons I will never live in California.

rwthomas1 10-31-2004 09:09 PM

I have no problem with clean air standards. I think they are valuable and have definitely cleaned up Kalifornia. The problem is that groups like CARB keep calling for ever tighter emissions restrictions. I believe that new vehicles are something like 98.7% clean. That means there is only 1.3% more improvement to be had. So when CARB calls for a further 50% reduction in emissions what they mean is the want cars that are 99.4% clean. This is the law of diminishing returns. Why not pursure the gross polluters? It is insane to require all automobilies to be super clean while allowing power plants, factories, trains, trucks etc. to continue to pollute at will. The next thing the should be chasing is the "low hanging fruit". This will have the greatest impact not another 0.7% decrease in auto emissions. Regarding the US automakers the reason diesels are being considered is the CAFE ratings. Since diesels are so much more efficient producing them would allow the big three to meet the future CAFE ratings with ease. I am not concerned about the apparent inability of the US automakers to produce viable small diesels. More to the point it would be much simpler for them to buy or build european or japanese diesel engines. If the diesel thing begins to grow for real then you will see this for sure. There is already a history of this. Ford put BMW diesels in some Lincolns (rare), GM put Isuzu diesels in the Luv pickup, Chevette and currently in their pickups. The Jeep Liberty and PT cruiser will have an MB diesels. Freightliner builds the Sprinter under license. Hybrid technology is limited to small econocars as the batteries required are both heavy and expensive. GM is supposed to be working on a hybrid pickup but I can't see this being particularly suited to the typical work truck environment. Fuel cells are a great idea but still a long way from practical. Right now the best thing that diesels have going for them is the rapidly increasing fuel prices. As long as gasoline continues to increase the diesel advantage will look better and better and demand will increase. RT

boneheaddoctor 10-31-2004 09:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by psfred
California's air pollution laws are anything but excessive -- all you have to do is sit on Mt. Baldy and watch the brownish black air blow up the valley to understand just how bad the air really is. You can SEE the air it's so bad.

Suburbs and freeways should have been banned in the 50's out there.

Before you complain about the environmental laws, you should experience the consequences of not having them -- changes your mind a bit.

Peter


Hey our air is not that bad WITHOUT the lunacy of CARB.............

the standard Federal emmisions standards are fine as they are.

Besides, You can harp on the benifits of carb all you want, You living in Indiana means it doesn't affect you directly. If the Car manufacturers got together and collectively told CARB to stuff it and refuse to sell new cars there, ................See how long it would take for there to be an uprising against them and then CARB would be a thing of the past.

bill murrow 10-31-2004 09:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by boneheaddoctor
The answer is simple. Blame the tree huggers and the nutcases from Berkley that your fellow Kalifornians voted into office over the last 40 years. What you have now is the results of letting liberals be in charge for way too long.

Don't get me wrong, I little enviromentalism is a good thing, But like most things too much of it makes it a bad thing.

BINGO You hit it right.....

Thats why we don't have the much needed refinerys. During the Clinton years we were saying we would need more refining capacity and Clinton sided with the tree huggers.

Don't get me wrong either as enviroment is a huge issue with me as well but daggone it we need oil!!! :mad:

Cheers,

Bill

whunter 10-31-2004 11:38 PM

Hmmm
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by rwthomas1
This is the law of diminishing returns.
The Jeep Liberty and PT cruiser will have MB diesels. Freightliner builds the Sprinter under license.

CARB could care less, their program is zero emission vehicles or nothing and damn what happens, and anyone who tries to open their eyes is an EVIL polluter.
Chrysler, Jeep and Freightliner are names 100% owned by Daimler.
GM and Ford buyer surveys show little or no market for diesels in cars, why should they waste engineering R&D money on at best a submarket?
As most of you know; the mass of America think that diesels are expensive, difficult to keep running, smelly and dirty, change that and diesels will sell here, until then, don't let it get your blood pressure up.

The only way to stop CARB is to remove their charter through state house, legislature and governor, with the help of the state supreme court, which can not happen...

dwferg 10-31-2004 11:49 PM

Hybrid TDI
 
I am a newbee to this sight but here is a link ot a article on VWs hybrid TDI, :) :cool: http://www.auto123.com/en/info/news/news,view.spy?artid=30458&pg=1

AustinsCE 11-01-2004 12:09 AM

i live 30 minutes from mt baldy and you can see the air, in LA. Why should one county with about 8X the people living there than should be living there dictate the rest of the state? Obviously its overcrowded and there is always going to be a bunch of pollution in a metropolis. What, Chicago or indianapolis doesnt have smog? CARB isnt the solution. LA dropping into the pacific IS. I think if Mercedes would market and push the performance diesels here, and not jack the prices way too high like everything else they sell these days, there would be no problem selling them. I dont know anyone who would turn down a 300 hp, 400 lb ft of torque car that gets 30 MPG. And the Gov. needs to get off his high horse, stop thinking about becoming president and actually DO something, anything, so far in office he has not done a single thing, about anything. More of the same, useless politicians and idiots in office. Hybrids are way too expensive after you buy them and will never catch on.Useless anyway, with the AC on, driving on the freeway at 60, you get like 10 MPG. Usually theres like 1 tech. that can work on one in any given shop, if that many. Had the pleasure of riding in one for school, nice little MPG digital deal right there on the dash. With the AC on in the parking lot, got only 15 MPG


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