"Why can't we have modern diesel cars here?" - Page 6 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

whunter · #76 11-04-2004, 10:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim B+

existing petroleum product supply infrastructure, and be something I could buy at the pump (for a fair price), somebody in the gas and oil business will jump on the idea...or pay you to keep it quiet, like they did with that engine that runs on tap water.

There never was any engine made to run on tap water...
There have been several Hydrogen R&D vehicles that used tap water to break down, on board for hydrogen and oxygen, not cost effective, and very high repair cost + danger...

#77 11-04-2004, 11:05 AM

Your thought brings up the point of the explosion / acid burn problem with "hybrid" and electric-only vehicles, and even groundwater pollution problems from MTBE...added to gas to cut down on AIR pollution!

It's fascinating to read up on how advanced steam-powered cars were by the 1920s...very reliable, quick ignition and smooth power, almost NO moving parts, no explosion or fire hazard, FAST... (a Stanley held the land speed record for nearly 20 years!) Using condenser technology developed for marine engines and locomotives, they could recapture water from spent steam, giving the steam cars a cruising range beyond that of gas vehicles between (water) fill-ups. Steam cars were durable...and no pollution to speak of...hundreds were brought back into road service during WWII gas rationing. High costs killed off the Doble and Stanley, and the Stanley brothers basically just got tired of the business and shut down to follow other pursuits. Steam powered trucks were common in England until as late as the 1950's.

DieselAddict · #78 11-04-2004, 12:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim B+

existing petroleum product supply infrastructure, and be something I could buy at the pump (for a fair price), somebody in the gas and oil business will jump on the idea...or pay you to keep it quiet, like they did with that engine that runs on tap water.

Many companies have already integrated biodiesel into the petroleum supply infrastructure. For a list see www.biodiesel.org. I buy my B05 at a pump for slightly more than plain diesel.

boneheaddoctor · #79 11-04-2004, 02:39 PM

It would be great to tell the Middle eastern troublemakers to take a hike, then they could only balackmail the Europeans and the Chinese. But thats a TALL order.

phidauex · #80 11-04-2004, 03:40 PM

Biodiesel IS commercially viable, and it has been entering the market place slowly but surely. Problem is, our passenger car diesels are in the minority of diesels, so we'll see it at our pumps last. You see it first in agriculture, military and fleets, then truck stations, then 'end user' pumps. Right now it is being used heavily in agriculture, in the military, fleets (like many St. Louis busses), and is appearing in some end user pumps. In europe, if you buy diesel fuel is is almost certainly B2, 2% biodiesel, added to enhance lubricity with low sulfur fuels. Many 'premium diesel' blends also contain small quantities of biodiesel to improve lubricity.

I know that on these boards biodiesel has a reputation as a bit of a hippy/survivalist thing, but thats just those of us who are choosing to do it gureilla style. Commercial biodiesel is a big deal now, and will only be bigger as time goes on.

One key is tax incentives. One of the reasons that petroleum is cheap in this country is because it is subsidized. Sure, they tax it too, but the government bends over backwards to get the stuff into the country in the first place. No such provisions are available for biodiesel, they tax it, but don't help it.

However, on Oct. 11th an initiative passed in Congress to give a tax break to large users of biodiesel, to the tune of one cent per gallon per percentage point of biodiesel in the blend. Thats up to 1.00 a gallon for B100. Now, I don't know the details of this incentive, or how it applies to end users, but I know it was a big deal for the biodiesel industry, and is a big step in making it available.

Most of the major vehicle manufactures, like Caterpillar and John Deere all certify their vehicles for biodiesel and biodiesel blends. Most John Deeres are rated for use with B100, and the rest are rated for at least B20. They know it is important, and they are designing with biodiesel in mind.

So check with biodiesel.org and see if there are any pumps in your area. I'm sure there are fleet stations in your area, but it is likely that you have passenger car stations nearby too. And if you don't know, you will soon.

Biodiesel is currently more expensive than dinodiesel, but its prices are coming down as production improves, while dinodiesel's costs are only going up. Eventually the two prices will 'cross', and biodiesel will become essential.

Prices also vary a lot across the country because instead of there being a few giant suppliers like petrol, there are thousands of small suppliers and coops, each with their own margins and economies. If you don't like the price now, another producer might appear soon enough in your area.

peace,
sam

#81 11-04-2004, 03:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim B+

Your thought brings up the point of the explosion / acid burn problem with "hybrid" and electric-only vehicles, and even groundwater pollution problems from MTBE...added to gas to cut down on AIR pollution!

You don't worry about that lead acid battery under the hood right? The batteries in hybrid cars are NiMh batteries. Toyota for one, has their system setup to instantly disconnect the high voltage battery pack from the system in the event of a major collision. There has been one person in the Prius forums who was in a collision bad enough to actually damage the cover of the battery pack. No electric shock, no leaks (impossible with dry cell batteries), and no other catastrophic failures. Only thing done to the battery pack, was to replace the cover.

Since this subject keeps coming up, I'm attaching a picture of the battery.

#82 11-04-2004, 03:52 PM

involved emergency workers who had used "jaws of life" and other tools that resulted in electric shock / acid spill / fumes / burns to the rescuers, who likely weren't expecting an accident involving an electric or hybrid vehicle.

phidauex · #83 11-04-2004, 04:56 PM

There was some news speculation (sensationalism in the news, imagine that!) that problems would happen, but to my knowledge no one has ever been injured from the high voltage system in a hybrid vehicle in a rescue setting. If you can find a news report to the contrary, I'd love to see it!

The safety systems in the Prius are really very good, and high voltage systems aren't placed in areas that you might be opening. Plus, sealed NiMH batteries, unlike lead-acids, will not dump acid and fumes all over the place, even if they are fully breached.

Emergency workers are being trained on the systems in hybrid cars so they know what they are approaching, but a LOT of work has been done to ensure that they will still be able to do everything they need to do without worry of shock or explosion.

Battery acid, hot engine oil, fuel fumes, and all these other bad things have been a problem in cars for a long time. Hybrids add NiMH batteries, but they don't have the scary lead acids that are in all of our cars.

If you think they are more dangerous than an old MB without ABS or airbags, then you haven't read the crash test data on them! Sure the hybrids weigh less, but steel and safety don't always come hand in hand. Old MBs are pretty safe cars, but don't think 20 years of safety technology isn't worth anything.

peace,
sam

#84 11-04-2004, 05:08 PM

Some VERY interesting stuff, although there don't seem to have been any actual "Killer Prius" events yet...(see link).

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A14072-2003Nov25?language=printer

bill murrow · #85 11-04-2004, 09:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim B+

Some VERY interesting stuff, although there don't seem to have been any actual "Killer Prius" events yet...(see link).

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A14072-2003Nov25?language=printer

I don't live too far from where this accident happened and do now remember it taking place.

Funny how safety and laws are so similar. For every law thats written somebody finds a way around it and for every safety feature thats added there's always some sort of unforseen repercussion.

Cheers,

Bill

boneheaddoctor · #86 11-05-2004, 09:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim B+

Some VERY interesting stuff, although there don't seem to have been any actual "Killer Prius" events yet...(see link).

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A14072-2003Nov25?language=printer

OH, that Washington post the epitomy of unbiased news coverage, Just like the New York times and CBS.....

Thats a local paper for me and I take EVERYTHING they say with a healthy dose of salt.

#87 11-05-2004, 09:23 AM

still they won't give you a REAL spare tire...to save weight? How much do all the gratuitous side-curtain, headliner, and other airbag stuff add to curb weight? And these airbags EXPLODE when a vehicle catches fire and rescue guys are there trying to douse the flames?

WannaWagon · #88 11-05-2004, 02:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by boneheaddoctor

OH, that Washington post the epitomy of unbiased news coverage, Just like the New York times and CBS.....

What did you find biased about the article? Did you even read it?

It mostly quotes real firefighters saying this is becoming a big problem for them. These are people you might gush over as "heros" in another context. What makes their comments here so unseemly to you?

They even quote a DaimlerChrysler official saying "It's a valid point."

boneheaddoctor · #89 11-05-2004, 02:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WannaWagon

What did you find biased about the article? Did you even read it?

It mostly quotes real firefighters saying this is becoming a big problem for them. These are people you might gush over as "heros" in another context. What makes their comments here so unseemly to you?

They even quote a DaimlerChrysler official saying "It's a valid point."

The washington post is as objective as Dan Rather of CBS is, or the New York times..........................

Just like you can count on the sun rising in the morning and setting at night.

Their motto is damn the facts..............

phidauex · #90 11-05-2004, 03:24 PM

The Washington Post article is interesting, but like mentioned, it says nothing about an actual Prius-related injury (which is why we are talking about it). The issue of airbags causing post-accident injuries is valid, but the fact that people occasionally get injured by them doesn't outweigh the thousands of people who's lives are saved by them. Its like saying seat belts are dangerous because occasionally people drive into a river and get trapped because of the seat belt. Anomalous things happen occasionally, but you need to look at the overall trend.

Toyota has done a good job of educating emergency teams and auto body shops on the safety features of the Prius, and how to identify them. They hold all sorts of training sessions and have released a lot of printed material.

Perhaps there should be a legal requirement for any new safety technology to be accompanied by a standardized training program for emergency teams, to keep them updated on what they may be finding out there. Cars are getting safer, but they are also getting more confusing, and I think the responsibility of providing them with the information they need lies in the hands of those developing the technology.

Also...

You don't really need a real spare tire these days, newer tires and better roads result in fewer blowouts, and you should be able to make it home or to a service station on a small spare. Sure it doesn't look as nice, but it will do its job, and it will save you money in the long run since you won't be hauling 30 extra pounds everywhere you go.

peace,
sam