---Jim --Hi from MiamiMike in Miami. Interesting words you wrote above in your post. I call today's culture--buying mentality--the "Bic Lighter mentality--when its broke or out of fluid throw it away. Contrast that to my buy mentality of the "Zippo Lighter Generation"--buy once, take care of the item and it last a lifetime--like a Zippo--GUARENTEED for Life(still)--on cars--I had a 81300TD--best car I ever owned--treded it for a 85 MB 190D--worst car I ever owned!!!! I celebrated long and drank hard the day that car was sold. I now have a '99 VW TDI-Beetle--talk about expensive parts--my old MB 300 parts were cheaper--still the VW with a 5 spd is nice and some guys are reporting theirs running good with 300000+ miles on them. I also have two MB-240Ds-that I am trying to get roadworthy presently--I love em--simple--non mechanical and built like a tank. My little VW weighs about 200lbs. more then the 85 MB-190D did--a real surprise. But back to your idea--the marketers(auto) don't want to see people keeping their old 240s and 300s fro 30 years--they want someone who comes in and trades every 3 years so they can make that huge commission--when I roll in--with old 80s cars--they head for cover--I am the last person they want to see--no commission!! Ha! Ha!

My bosses wife has a 1986 190D 2.5N/A-5speed and I think it's a very nice car. It will bark the tires from a start, in the 1-2, and can keep up with most 300Ds I've ever been in (Except TomJ's). Quality wise, it is a step down from the W123/6. Example: W123: Dual piston fixed-calipers on all four wheels. W201: single piston slidin-calipers on the front and Dual piston fixed-calipers in the rear. :rolleyes:

Just the 240s, or all Volvos from the '80s as with the M-Bs? Do you have any exact statistics? Just wondering.

How about the Cummins powered Dodge pickups?-namely the 12 valve first generation starting in 1989(I know, only 15-16 yrs. ago)-I've seen old ones hauling unbelievable amounts of stuff(and I know personally of 2 that are over 300K mi. with little or no major problems).

The Volvo 240 and the MB's of the pre-'85 period were
 

the acme of "mechanical" automobiles. The could not be improved upon in any significant way insofar as materials, workmanship, perpetual reliability, longevity, and well thought out and pleasant design. Much of the electronic content that has crept into cars since has been to meet mandated safety and pollution standards, but the great bulk of gizmos (GPS, etc) was to fancy up the cars so they might sell better. And much of it was a question of "building to a price"...which made much suffer.

The "better" cars of 20 years ago are in many ways the high points of what automobiles were supposed to be...98 percent of "progress" since then has, IMHO, in fact been retrograde.

You've got it. The data is based on customer-filled out surveys. I can't tell you the number of times I have heard a Santa Fe or other Hyundai scraping down the road and its owner did not realize that there was a "problem."

I used to work across the street from a Hyundai dealer and the finance guy told me that they would offer customers stuff like free car washes if they brought in a JD power survey if they received one.

I don't consider my 2005 E320 CDI disposable. The car seems very solid, even compared to my 1987 260E which was fabulous but had glitches in the AC and needed a fuel injector upgrade. The CDI is trouble free for 18,000 luxurious miles and handles like no other Benz before it. It had the electronic brakes recalled and this was done with no problem.

I think the newest electrical components are improving and should outlast many a "classic" Mercedes while outperforming the old stuff in every way. Heck, even the stereo now sounds like a concert hall and is a far cry from the old Beckers.

My 2002 New Beetle TDI is fully operational at 108,000 miles with minor glitches fixed by rather mediocre VW dealers. These two cars are much more reliable than any of my pre Y2K cars ever were. :)

This is an interesting thread that tracks history/development of MB automobiles.

IMHO, the steel worker's strike of 1973-79 was when MB changed its logic.

Used to be that craftsmen, skilled blue-collar workers, machinists and steel workers made the cars so great. But now it's like these guys have bit the bullet and crackpot engineers, lunatic designers and marketing "geniuses" have taken over the company.

For sure the new cars are top-heavy with nutty gadgets but it's the same engine block, suspension refinements and structural excellence of MB tradition.

I guess consumer reports spent alot of time listening to crybabies whining about HVAC, cruise control and electronic fiddly bits..... all the crap that has nothing to do with MB philosophy: "Das Beste oder Nichts."

Maybe the new MB philosophy should be: "More than you need and more than you want" - instead of - "The Best or Nothing" ....as Gottlieb Daimler used to say.

But c'mon are the new MB's really so horrible - or have times changed to where detailed craftsmanship and overbuilt mechanical simplicity takes backseat to modern electronic engineering?

Hell yes, I'd like to see them build another workingman's Benz like the cult classic 110 Finbodies that populated the world and dominated the 3rd world taxi-cab industry back in the 1960s.

Pierre, maybe it's all those 300SE cars that make you think that older models are less reliable ...... 1992 300SE? ......1972 300SE? ...... and God Almighty the Heckflosse 1966 300SE - a car so outclassed by humbler models that it became an embarassment to the car company which was forced to add chrome fiddly bits to the body so it would at least look like a better car.

Something I've suspected for a very long time - economy model MB's are always superior automobiles to top-of-the-line editions...... based entirely on what you do NOT get with the car.

<edit: What is the basic stripped down 4-door diesel model of today, does anybody know?

Exactly!!!!
 

You have found out the facts.

Unfortunatley, unless there occurs some major social and economic upheaval, the day of the 20 year car has passed. We diehards that like to flaunt our antique cars in the face of planned obsolescence and others who can't afford anything newer don't really count in most manufacturer's marketing strategies. As long as most car buyers want all the bells & whistles, in a car that lasts until trade-in time or the lease is over, can we really expect long term durability?

Having said that, I think that the importance of maintaining a good reputation still counts. A big problem today is that many car makers have gotten gadget crazy at the expense of reliabilty. Historically, the Europeans seem to have the most difficulty providing reliable gadgets whereas the Japanese have excelled at it.
The British, French and Italian car makers have virtually dissappeared from the US market and the rest of Europe may follow if long term reliability doesn't come up to consumer expectations, especially in cars costing 2 or 3 times more than a Toyota or Honda.

Happy Motoring, Mark

You can buy a new Mercedes without the gadgets in Europe. Taxi cabs are still to be found in great numbers in the Mercedes flavor, and new models too.

When the new version of the E class came out in 1986, there was a taxi driver strike complaining of decreased reliability. Now these cars are worshipped for their robustness.

Its always the new stuff that offends those used to the old stuff.

By the way, Mercedes was responding with styling and gadget changes to the marketing onslaught of BMW which in the 1980's brought inferior design, engineering, materials, and quality control to the USA at prices similar to Mercedes and made a killing (in the slight recession during 1988, BMW was the only European automaker to make a profit). They were touted as equal to Mercedes, and I found no such comparability. BMW's are even more notorious for electrical gizmos that don't work well, and they fall apart a lot sooner, especially the 7 series.

After 18,000 miles, my E320 CDI is every bit as nice as and MORE reliable than my 1987 260E. My 1999 ML320 although not problem free is like new after 112,000 miles and counting. The best reliability seems to always come at the end of a model run and seems to be IMPROVING ACROSS THE BOARD over the years. :sun_smile

Look between the lines in Consumer Reports car surveys, which are basically relative, and you might discover that even the worst reliability today is better than the best 10 or 20 years ago. :cool:

I'm sorry, but the newer cars do have more electronics, they do have more MAF sensors, they do have more CATS, they do have several hundered maybe thousands more onboard computers and naturally, more will fail as there is a greater chance.

What we all like about our old cars is that they can have all kinds of problems with them, but they will never leave you stranded on the roadside because of something you could not have prevented.

DslBnz:

I would like to see CR tally up the data in a way that would reflect total problems and stratify it to eliminate the frivolous from the very serious ones.

How about the older designs and aging cars getting stranded with a failed transmission, electronic coil, fuel injection pump, starter solenoid, etc.? Save for the recent VW fiasco with their ignition coils, I believe even these components are more reliable in the new cars due to improvements in materials, manufacturing, computer design, and innovation.

My ML320, E260, 320E and second 190E all had severe problems early on that were hard to fix, including fuel leaks, electronic problems, and complex air-conditioning failures. So far, nothing on the 2005 (knock on wood) after 18,000 miles. Other cars of ours also seem more reliable including a 2004 Toyota and 2003 Honda than previous cars of these makes.

Of course having more components on a car may increase the chance that one of them would eventually break. This is a very complex question that relates to how all vehicle components eventually fail in some way, but has more to do with built in durability. Did Model T's fail more often or less often with similar use to our current cars?

I don't think Mercedes and its suppliers have been sitting on their hands since the 1980's but have made some improvements in reliability and durability. I am not so cynical to assume things are worse just because of electronic complexity. In fact, computer modules today are vastly more reliable than previous designs and simpler to replace.

It reminds me of the early 80's when GM actually made cars that could not be fixed due to electrical gremlins. They have improved since also.

On some relatively recent cars, BMW chose to put all their computer modules inside the left rear quarter panel. One hit in that area would total the car if it was older, as they would cost upwards of $16,000 to replace in addition to the bodywork. The computers would also fail if they were reprogrammed more than a certain small number of times.

The latest components in all cars are more modular, more robust, have better assembly techniques, and are better protected now. Experience counts and the automotive industry has made significant cost and production efficiencies and have not lost sight of reliability. Mercedes cannot possibly compete without making similar changes and improvements in production and design. Hopefully things will continue to improve. :cool:

Its possible, Pierre. But after the years have passed these cars have proven themselves to be champions in the long haul.

Mercedes was number one in customer satisfaction based on reliability and functionality of their systems in 1987. They were far and above all the manufacturers in the world. The one at the helm of Daimler-Chrysler now is a penny-pincher. A hint, you have to do is look in your trunk to discover that you do not have a full size alloy wheel like they gave in the older Mercedes, for example.

I hope you're right, FWIW. Just watch out for what I said, beware of the racks going in these cars, beware of plastic window regulators with riveted sides breaking on you, make sure to depressurize brakes before servicing lest you lose your right hand, beware of burned seat upholstery, and beware of sunvisor mirrors busting off their doors. Those are just some of the things the '02 model W210 had in common occurence.

I suppose you just have to be careful. I hope you enjoy your car. I think the 211 is a beautiful, eye-catching car. Hope the new S-Class serves MB justice, too.

Thanks. I think the attention to detail you may desire requires longer model runs, fewer changes, and higher cost. All these things may not be possible in today's environment.

When I think of how poor the designs are of certain Japanese companies when it comes to driver positioning, seat cushions, engine dynamics, road feel, overall safety, etc. it is sobering to think their lack of innovation and attention to detail gives them their ability to make their components more reliable.

A similar thread exists in the TDIclub.com web site, in that most would prefer to trade some reliability for better performance in other areas of design, including cutting edge innovation.

Hopefully Mercedes will reach the happy medium they once may have had.