Good posts Pierre. Nice content.

I'll be as brief and straight to the point as I can: indeed, as times move on and experience increases, the design, engineering and manufacturing of many of these components become better. However, since M-B drastically reduced the prices and quality of each car in its line up in 1995 to better compete with the emerging Japanese luxury brands, things have been terrible for these cars. I'm hearing stories of simple things like power window motors and their switches failing at 3,000 miles or so. Unbelievable coming from M-B and even more shocking when you remember that M-B invented power windows and all of a sudden, it is unable to make those that work even when brand new. We keep blaming electronic gremlins when in actual fact, the overall quality of M-Bs went down the drain in every regard - except maybe safety. AIRMATIC suspensions on the W220 that always fail, interior quality that has "cost cutting" written all over it. These are not related to electronics at all. However, all this is changing already as we speak.

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1999 Mercedes-Benz S600, 103K miles - garage queen
1988 Mercedes-Benz 560SEL, 89K miles - daily driver
2007 Hyundai Sonata Limited, 31K - daily driver

Thanks.

Yes, the switches do seem a bit cheap and have failed on me twice in the ML. The leather is not as soft or thick but seems to have a useful rougher surface that may outlast previous "quality" leather. No squeaks or rattles, this 2005 so far. The trunk actually works to open it unlike the 1992 S we had. The AC hasn't flinched and hasn't needed a master technician to fix over 3 days like the 260E and 190E bizzare designs. We sold the 260E partly because Mercedes counld not fix the AC! But, you never know....

I don't doubt the Japanese are more reliable but their cars are heavier, gaudy, and gimmicky. I think BMW has probably improved also but its hard to tell from the available data how much.

Anecdotal data has been around all along with horror stories to be found in every brand. Its a game of percentages, and any buyer should beware of the possible problems, be they rare or common. VW made good on their cheap window regulators with an internal recall at any mileage!

I just don't see the point of telling these stories without data because I have also heard similar ones about Lexus and Honda. Recent available data on Porsche show that these cars are extremely reliable compared to the late 1990's, so there seems to be hope. I don't think GM designs off the drawing board would be even close to such good numbers - why do you think they recycle their engine designs, some that have been in production since 1955!

When I drive in the 2005 E, its innovative design makes me happy. Its like a flying saucer compared to other vehicles IMO. I'm sure there is some dissapointment coming, but I have a good dealer to work with. Very important in my experience. Hope those common rails last a while!

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2005 E320 CDI
1999 ML320

Hey Mark, glad to see you here on the diesel board!! But I think skilled technicians and craftsmen are also suffering..... Have you spoken with any of the engine bay gang at the MB dealership lately? There's not alot of creativity left when computer systems tell service techs what needs to be fixed and/or adjusted.

The dealership blue-collar crew treated me like one of their own kind at the coffee wagon when I pointed out my '79 MB. Yet it embarassed the showroom team to have my '79 240D parked next to one of their brand new "mystery machines" in the parking lot.

This was last May when picking up a $2.98 glow plug fuse that I'd fixed with bailling wire, easily spotting the no-start problem as there's only one electrical circuit running to the block that's involved with starting the old 240D. Just for the helluvit, I couldnt resist visiting the showroom floor.....

Dang the insides of modern MB's are cramped!! They even have knee pads under the dashboard and the roof line was almost too low for my baseball cap. The car was the CLK model..... really tiny and cute - about as far from one of the old Heckflosse/Finbodies, the 114/115's and even the 123 sedans as you can get.

Salesmen were shocked when I opened the hood and started prowling around in the engine compartment, trying to figure out the Kompressor/supercharger. No help, there wasnt anybody in the showroom who had any idea in the world exactly how the supercharger worked.

I think each generation of MB reflects the times when it's produced.

These days satelite navigatiton systems are a very good idea for people who hate using road maps. And nobody cares if the car has enough headroom for wearing a Stetson cowboy hat, or if interior space allows passenger and driver to share a pepperoni pizza while driving cross-country.

And everybody's greatest concerned is the HVAC system, same as always.... LOL, an independent tech I know is stuck with the automatic climate control in the old MB he drives everyday. He has managed to hotwire the system for permanent heat in wintertime or cold in summertime. Meanwhile he laughs about mastering the art of opening electric windows to the perfect point for ballancing inside temperatures. He says opening the passenger's front window is the best way to regulate driver's side temperature.

If he had the old corner wing windows that went out of production in 1973 instead of the horrible ACC, then I guess he'd have an easier time of ballancing air flow.

Many folks spend about 1 1/2 hours with their car each day. If impressed with comfort, handling and performance, why should anybody care about fiddly bits and accessories?

Here's the rub - most people today are concerned with creature comforts that remove them entirely from the driving experience. And they dont care and dont want to know how the car works - as long as it runs without hassle and the designer "image" makes them feel proud.

For others, driving is (and will always be) an outdoor activity. I guess, it's a city/country dweller thing wether or not somebody wants to do their own work. I've heard that in many suburban condo developments and gated communities it's forbidden for residents to work on their own cars..... imagine that!



If y'all catch any crap from BMW owners try reminding them that BMW builds arguably the best motorcycles in the world.... I like to steer discussion with BMW owners towards bikes that I can also talk about for hours on end. Then ask them if they think BMW builds better motorcycles than they build cars!! LOL, this never fails at debunking the BMW automobile crowd.

They will walk away thinking their car is an afterthought created by an excellent motorcycle manufacturer.

Otherwise, has anybody noticed if Land Rovers have gotten better or worse since BMW bought them out a few years ago?

I think we will have to wait longer and see about the reliability of, say, the E320 CDI. Hopefully they will get very reliable with a bit of time.

I test drove one today for the heck of it. I just wanted to see what it was like... I don't like the interior space as much, it just doesn't feel as roomy or open as my 1991 car. But... that transmission sure shifts smoothly. And the engine does not sound like a diesel at all standing over it with the hood open. It's remarkably quiet. And darn, that 0-100 in 7 seconds is quite amazing too. Very powerful and economical. Handled like a dream too, I think. I just hope the computer is relatively reliable...

Just not in my budget range yet. Maybe in 10 years!

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1991 MB 300D 2.5 Turbo (207000km) (now gone)
1993 Audi 100 CS Quattro (300000km)
1999 VW Jetta TDI (290000km)
2002 Audi A6 3.0 Quattro (150000km)
2005 MB E320 CDI (34000km)

Yes, I sometimes throw in my 2 cents worth here, on the Diesel Forum. Lately, I've been wondering if it's time to replace my 20 year old Honda Accord with a 10 year old one, but the possibility of using alternative fuels is making an older diesel VW or Mercedes more attractive (Over the possible objections of the tax-man!). Wish I could find some cheap alternative fuel for my oil furnace. I just paid nearly $800 to fill the tank!

As for reliabilty, I base my opinions on more than just anecdotal information. Besides Consumer Reports, I've seen recent news stories (not including J D Power) concerning the decline in reliability of many European makes, especially Mercedes and Volvo. And the problems with the ML series have been well documented here. Such things as chronic balancer failure and power steering hoses blowing off their fittings do not inspire confidence in a car that can cost 2 or 3 times as much as a Chevy or Toyota. What good are all the latest high tech goodies if you can't design an engine pulley that stays together! Over the past year, I've had to repair both these items on a customer's '99 ML430. I don't claim that the Japanese are perfect either. Toyotas had V6 headgasket problems and some older Honda automatics were troublesome, but their overall track record is still superior. And I'd trade just about any automatic climate control for the simple, logical manual ones in my friend's new Camry.
I certainly hope the newest Mercedes are more reliable. We'll see in 10 or 15 years, when I might again be shopping for a used one.

Happy Motoring, Mark

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DrDKW

Mark, the secret of hacking into cheap heating oil to fuel the diesel (without paying road use tax) is to gradually and consistently tap into the tank so nothing looks suspicious, say pirating no more than 40 gallons each month and less if the weather is warm. Dunno about VA, but nobody here in the hills will say anything even if you pirate more than 50 gal each month in the summertime. Rigging a cheap electric basement sump pump and garden hose that can quickly fill a few jerry cans with home heating oil after dark is easy. All you need is a special wrench to access the tank, a pronged or single square headed allen type device. Just keep it discreet and concealable, and keep an eye on when the fuel company schedules appointments for refilling the tank. We dont want to hear about you getting hauled off to jail.

Meanwhile you arent kidding anybody at claiming your next car will be another Honda....LOL. Truth is you've been sneaking around here for awhile and even test drove a couple of diesels last year, eh? You gotta know the MB experience is incomplete if you never own and drive a 4-spd diesel, hopefully a 115 if you can find one. C'mon, you are secretly scheming to acquire one of the cheap 4-spd 240Diesels on ebay for less than $1,000, arent you? But there is also a more modern 5-spd 190D if you actually need a newer car.

Finally, that's really bad news about Volvo and MB getting crummy reviews because it reflects poorly on Ford and Chryzler which have bought into the European companies. It's like saying whenever a European car company gets financially tied-up with conglomerates, then their products turn to crap. This might be true, but I'd like to think MB wouldnt be building the amazing 6-spd 60+mpg 3cyl smart car diesel if they didnt have USA financial support.

Hah! Volvos being less reliable since Ford bought them?! Ya could've fooled me. Our 1988 240D (not diesel I'm afraid but got 27 mpg on regular) and the 1991 760 Turbo couldn't wait for their 5,000 mile oil change to get back to the dealer for more repairs. One dealer couldn't even find one out of the two fuel leaks the car had, probably because the service manager was too drunk! (I needed to be escorted out once having had such great "service" at the Volvo dealer and went directly to Mercedes and traded in the clunkers).

Some of you just can't help dreaming that your vintage cars were/are more reliable and show your predjudices easily to those of us who follow real statistical data. Since Ford took over, the reliability of Jaguar has significantly improved. Volvo switched to front wheel drive and probably has some issues with that, but newer cars are almost always more reliable.

As far as automatic AC goes, Mercedes seems to have figured out how to make it work after years of trying.

Still, I would love to have a perfect 300SD in my driveway with less than 200,000 miles that won't require serious mechanical, interior, or body repairs - but that is not possible to find for the average buyer. Us poor ignorant slobs will just have to do with a newer car that only drives like a dream and has all the advantages of newer technology and manufacturing techniques.

Recent studies of cost vs. content of new cars reveal the latest vehicles are bargains, factoring in inflation etc. But don't worry about it when you go and replace that rusted out radiator or bust that nice indirect injection pump. Sure do miss driving a clunky automatic and turn on that wonderful recirculating ball steering! How about those crank windows (sure, they never need repair, do they )

Sheesh

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2005 E320 CDI
1999 ML320

My wife broke the crank window on the drivers side in her Jeep about 3 or 4 times when I finally made her repair the window. Never had a problem after that with the cars window. I have often thought that a lot of a cars problems were owner/driver related, because I saw a lot of just type of thing as service writer (part time job for sailor on shore duty) and service manager after retiring from USN.

Lots of good points here and I agree with a lot if not most of what Pierre, 240Diesel Dog and others say, but I still wonder about all the electronic's gizmo's that are just really not needed and those that are needed to make the car what it is today.

VW Golf TDI diesel in the US 240DieselDog. Is the dog by chance a Staffordshire Bull Terrrier?

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'10 Chrysler T&C Stow-N-Go White. Grandpa's ride.

'13 Chrysler 200 Touring Candy Red. Grandma's ride.

Age and cunning will always over come youth and vigor.

I never claimed older Volvos were extremely reliable, though the 240 series does have a much better reputation than their more recent FWD cars. And in the 3 years I've owned it, my 20 year old Honda hasn't been trouble free either, but it WAS a $500 car. It's had no electronic glitches and most of the repairs have been easily and cheaply fixed by myself. With a 5-speed, it's also fun to drive and can get over 35 MPG, but creeping rust is making me think about replacemnt.

When I said 'alternative fuels', I meant such 'free' alternatives as WVO - waste vegetable oil. Since my heating system is 'dual-fuel', with a heatpump and oil furnace as backup, I could probably more easily get away with driving on heating oil, but I,d still have to pay for it! I AM concerned that the same tax law sanctions could apply to burning WVO in a diesel car.
Also wonder if WVO or other alternative fuels will work in my oil furnace?

Happy Motoring, Mark

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DrDKW

That's why Mercedes-Benz also makes the spacious S-Class sedan and the CL-Class coupes. It is a matter of variety and different prices for people who have different levels of income and different tastes. Want a huge brand new Benz? Grab an S-Class!!

There's a good reason why the engine bays these days are all covered up with plastic: automakers, knowing that they use many electronics these days, don't want their customers getting involved with them and creating bigger messes than already exist. I am impressed that the salesmen knew nothing about how the supercharger works? No. But I am offended by that, or am I disappointed? Not really!

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1999 Mercedes-Benz S600, 103K miles - garage queen
1988 Mercedes-Benz 560SEL, 89K miles - daily driver
2007 Hyundai Sonata Limited, 31K - daily driver

And I thought those plastic covers were just a stylist's attempt at prettying-up engines which are no longer works of art, but merely ugly industrial appliances.

Happy Motoring, Mark

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DrDKW

I can see the point made about interior space. That may be one reason why so many people are buying SUV's nowadays.

The 211 E's are probably roomier than the 124's especially in the back seat.

I really liked the looks of those plastic engine covers until I started to fool with them to try and change the oil etc. I think they are there for heat retention, noise isolation, and to keep some of the dirt out, but that is just a guess.

Thanks for your comments, OldNavy. Some of the electrical gizmos I can do without are:

- the thingy that opens up to show the 6 CD changer in the console (its fun to do)
- the computer display and controls (I am spoiled now, however, and want it too)
- automatic seat, steering wheel, and side mirror memory (we have 3 drivers that use the car all the time and it sure is nice - I want it too!)
- automatic wipers (luxury that doesn't always work right)
- Litronic headlights that turn with the car (gee, I am getting decadent now!)
- automatic panoramic roof controls (sure nice to have this thing that lets in a lot of light)
- electric sensotrinic brakes (dunno, but they sure seem safer - this is my main concern about the 211's)
- automatic dimming rear view mirrors (a godsend!)

I don't sympathize much for those with air suspensions. I have never seen a car that was reliable with such a device - maybe Lexus? Anyone who orders those rube goldberg ventilated and active side support seats deserves to have the car sit at the dealer!

I heard that the tire pressure monitoring system is problematic (the salesman advised against it!) so I didn't get it. Of course, that big breast we all suck on - our government - is mandating it for all cars, as it did some of the complex features in our cars like airbag and engine controls!

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2005 E320 CDI
1999 ML320

Actually Pierre, the air suspension on the Lexus is much simpler than the simplest M-B version and as a result, in addition to probably being of higher quality than the M-B one, its simpler design makes it less prone to failure. As an engineer from Rolls-Royce once said (during the launch of the Mercedes-Benz 600), "if there is a complex means of doing anything, the engineers at Daimler-Benz will find it." Lexus has the added benefit of the fact that all Lexus are born with the mind of being Toyotas first. So that means everything in them is made as simple as possible. M-Bs have always been about overengineering, making everything as complicated as possible.

I actually can't do without most of those things you listed now. For instance, my BMW X5 has rain-sensing windshield wipers. I've found myself driving my Benz and waiting for the wipers to come on only to realize I am in the wrong car! Then regarding the seat position memory, it is very useful to me as my girlfriend lives with me and sometimes has to drive my car - either for short trips or just to move the cars around, out of the driveway or something. She is just 5' 8" and I am 6' 3" so obviously she has to make seat adjustments in order to even drive any of my cars. I really noticed how much I was relying on the seat memory when after she drove my '84 Euro 500SEL which doesn't have seat memory, I found it nearly impossible to get back my EXACT seating position. I guess I am spoiled now.

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1999 Mercedes-Benz S600, 103K miles - garage queen
1988 Mercedes-Benz 560SEL, 89K miles - daily driver
2007 Hyundai Sonata Limited, 31K - daily driver

A good friend of mine drove by and showed me his new 5 series today. Lots of gadgets. Man that was nice. He'd been going back and forth on whether to buy the 5 series or the MB E320. He told me that the 2.9% financing and just the fact that he loved the way it drove swayed his decision.

The new short wheel base W220's have more back seat room than my long wheel base W126. The W124 has less room than the W210. Actually cars in general seem to be getting larger.

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1999 SL500
1969 280SE
2023 Ram 1500
2007 Tiara 3200