Ok, so Brian Carlton got burned on a TMU car by a bad seller. I've heard the story over and over here. But why do I always feel his anger directed towards me? I'm not Rolling Wheels Inc., nor do I know them. Is it just because I sell old Mercedes on Ebay? I don't hate all retail customers just because I've had a bad experience with 1 out of 5000+ that I've delt with...

I am sorry that you were burned, but that doesn't forgive the rude posts that you continually salt the forums with. Statements like "it doesn't take a genius to push metal", are rather offensive to those of us who happen to do it for a living. And while I will somewhat agree, that yes , by and large many cars dealers are, to some extent, ignorant and toothless for that matter, I don't like being continually reminded of it, nor to I care to be included in the bunch.

If the guy who sold you the 300SDL was so ignorant, then why was he able to cheat you and get away with it?

If you applied the same logic that you use for selling cars, then I suppose we should sell our homes the same way, and forgo the appreciation every year and just sell them for what we paid for them....

Cars are worth what people are willing to pay for them . Plain and simple.
If the buyer wants a primo E300D with 60K, then I say it's worth the $13k

I'd pay that if that was what I wanted...

The proper expression, as you already know, is mileage exempt. It was not TMU.

You feel this way because you are a used car dealer. You clearly have an affinity with other used car dealers and you feel bad when I malign them.

The general consensus of this forum is that you will more than likely have a bad experience if you deal with the typical used car dealer. The ratio is probably about 2 out of three and not 1 out of 5000 that you have stated.
And, yes, I have seen enough people get ripped off by used car dealers that I have a general distaste for all of them.

This is a forum where anybody can say whatever they please regarding their experiences with purchasing and maintaining these vehicles. As a used car dealer, you should also recognize that the people who work in your industry are some of the most ignorant people that one could possibly come across in retail sales. I'm sorry if you take this personally, but the facts are clearly available to prove this beyond a shadow of a doubt. You may wish to take another look at the recent posting of e-bay dealers. They cannot even get the correct number of cylinders in the post.


If you bothered to read the details, you would see that he was ignorant of many of the issues that were wrong with this vehicle. You would also see that he deliberately misled me regarding the mileage on the vehicle. He failed to disclose these items and I bought the vehicle from him without checking it out before I bought it. I had the option of walking away from it, however, I chose to continue with the purchase despite the issues. I do believe that I paid more than the vehicle was worth because of the outstanding issues.

Is there some logic that I am using that I am not aware of?

Does an automobile appreciate every year?


You have stated something quite different in post #7 of this thread. To wit:

You and I agree that a strong sales price is not a ripoff if the buyer is knowledgeable and knows exactly what he wants, and what he is buying, and he agrees to pay the price.

This is in stark contrast to "cars are worth what people are willing to pay for them". There is more then enough evidence that many, many people have paid too much for a vehicle that was misrepresented to them and sold without a warranty to back up those representations. E-bay is fraught with transactions where the buyer paid too much for the vehicle. The reason is that the vehicle was misrepresented and the buyer did not know exactly what he was buying.

The fraud is so pervasive that I would not be surprised to see the government step in and demand that these e-bay vehicles be offered with a 30 day warranty. In New York State, all dealers of used vehicles must provide a 30 day warranty. This largely eliminates the issue of misrepresentation. It's a good practice.

Do you, Mr. Phillips, offer a 30 day warranty on the vehicles that you represent?

Edited to provide the answer (as posted on a recent e-bay ad):

"My vehicles are sold as is, with out warranty."

Not very different from most every other automobile seller on e-bay, are you?

Hey, I'll buy the thing. I've got a 95 E300D with 105K and it runs like new, smooth and tight. I'm getting 33 to 35mpg. You'll save that mark up in gas the first year. It is rare to find a 10 year old diesel with verifiable low miles. You can work on the cars too - they have more elec stuff than the 70-80's but a dif system than the 96's. You're also dealing with the tried and true 124 body/running gear. Make a deal and buy it, fast.

HP, Brian is correct in his statements. I've dealt with the same "slick willy" he dealt with. Can leave a bad taste in your mouth.

300SDLTOM,

Brian is correct in that there are certainly a ton of slimy used car dealers out there - and there seem to be qutie a few on E-bay.

I can see how Herb (or other honest sellers of cars) would not like to be lumped into the "they are all lying slimebags" or was it "PUKEFACE"??, I can't remember.....

Brian - would you be willing to admit that not EVERY used car seller is a crook?

My Mother had 35 years working at a dealers only auction and knew most dealers in her part of the country....cars came from 3 states away, knew who was straight and who was slimey......the crooked guys far outnumber the honest ones.

You are right new dealers auction off the less desireable cars to the used car guys.....the better ones keep only the better ones and so on down the food chain....The low price dealers get the trash, cater to the poor, and the huge scam is dealer financing....they charge huge interest to the people with poor credit......and then have the "weekly payments plan" know why? VA says it has to be 4 payments in arrears to repossess....thats only i month instead of 4. They make more money on the financing than the cars. They get burned every so often but the rest more thanmake up for it.

I had an uncle do that.........sold a truck he got for $400 for $3,500 5 time in one year......repossesed it 4 times.......made over $5,000 in financing alone. Once in a while they get them back too trashed to resell, but like they say.......they pass those costs along.........of course these were peopel with credit so bad nobody else would sell to them. So they have stiffed enough people getting there it was time they got some in return.

Any Mercedes dealer would have dumped a headache through an auction.....and kept the better cars, they are high up the food chain and can afford it.

Warranties.........well I agree, if its as represented they will offer one. Even if its only 30 days. Most are through third party warranty companies and those have milage limits before they cover them.......anything with over 100,000 miles they typically won't cover.

__________________
Proud owner of ....
1971 280SE W108
1979 300SD W116
1983 300D W123
1975 Ironhead Sportster chopper
1987 GMC 3/4 ton 4X4 Diesel
1989 Honda Civic (Heavily modified)
---------------------
Section 609 MVAC Certified
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"He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." - Friedrich Nietzsche

To All Who Have Responded:

I think this post has gone beyond my initial request for feedback on a 95 E300D. I feel somewhat responsible for the heated debate that has evolved thus far. In order to put closure on this topic I wanted let everybody know I did decide to purchase the E300D in question for $13,500. The purchase price did not include the extended warranty discussed earlier. My rational for going ahead with the purchase is as follows:

1. Single Owner trade-in at MB dealership
2. Service history is spot on perfect 15K/30K/45K/60K (Oil changes performed every 3-4 K)
3. All factory tech. updates completed
4. New A/C system including dryer completed in last 24 months
5. New Michelin MV4 Energy's
6. Body/Interior is like new (garaged southern car).

The previous owner had put chrome fender trim on the car. The dealership has agreed to have them removed and throw in a new set of mats. Finally, I realize I am paying more than current book on the car but in the final analysis I have come to the conclusion it is worth paying a little extra for a premium car. Thanks again for everybody's feedback.

Cheers

G P Gunhouse

This sounds like a *super sweet* example of a ’95 E300D. If you are planning on keeping this car for a reallllly long time, then when you amortize any “extra” amount above the “book value” over many years, the extra premium that you paid for the car is negligible. It’s WELL worth it for a pristine car like yours. And believe me, you can certainly keep that car for many Many years to come…

__________________
Current rolling stock:
2001 E55 183,000+ Newest member of the fleet.
2002 E320 83,000 - The "cream-puff"!
1992 500E 217,000+
1995 E300D 412,000+
1998 E300D 155,000+
2001 E320 227,000+
2001 E320 Wagon, 177,000+

Prior MBZ’s:
1952 220 Cab A
1966 300SE
1971 280SE
1973 350SLC (euro)
1980 450SLC
1980 450SLC (#2)
1978 450SLC 5.0
1984 300D ~243,000 & fondly remembered
1993 500E - sorely missed.
1975 VW Scirocco w/ slightly de-tuned Super-Vee engine - Sold after 30+ years.

Most used car dealers are crooks.
Most used car dealers are looking to make "the fast buck".

I am involved in the "business", but it is a combination of sales and service. I work and sell Benzes that we have known for 30 + years, starting with the ponton(my dad knows a lot more about these cars than I).

It really is a good feeling when you sell a car to someone and it gives them years of trouble-free service and tens of thousands of miles. Kudos to the pre-90's Benzes in that respect.

I know what you guys mean, these used car salesmen are a joke. They'll do anything to get you into the front seat of a car.

I remember the other day I went to an MB dealer to ask for information about a 250K kilometer badge for one of our cars. Nobody knew what I was talking about. That was the parts dept.

Another time at the dealer, a salesman noticed my glancing at a new S600 bi-turbo in the showroom and thought he could educate me on how powerful and "luxurious" the car was. I ended up lecturing him on the history of MB from the Victoria to the Simplex, to the 170V to the current models. He was dumbfounded. How can they expect to sell cars when they know little if anything about them save for hp and torque numbers. My God, there is more to a car than that, it is supposed to be "Passion, like no other". Ha, that was an interesting day.

Never sell any cars that are NICE on ebay. What is most important is that a customer sits in the car, looks underhood, checks the body over, checks the accesories, and takes it for a drive. The more this is done, the more satisfied they will be.

Guys, if you are buying on ebay, sight-unseen, then you are accepting the risk that comes with bidding. The sellers will distort facts anyway they can or "conveniently" leave a few tidbits out of the description, or show a limited amount of pictures. What's their excuse "Oh what can you expect it IS a 20 year old car!" Pha.

I will not impose my business onto my fellow members. I never have and never will. I just wanted to tell you, there are some people out there trying to survive through honesty and a good reputation.

Congratulations - I think you made an excellent and well informed decision.

Congradulations GP. Your decision is most likely a costly one. According to Kelly Blue Book, you paid around $4,000.00 to $5,000.00 more than what you should have paid. On the other hand you probably got a really nice car, with low,(maybe?) milege. I totally understand the need for wanting a MB. It's very nice, but you probably got "slicked". In buying this car nearly 10 years old expect to pay out for R&R, which will drive the purchase of your car up instead of down in overall price. One is expected to pay more on R&R when he or she buys a "used" or "pre-owned" car, especially if there is no warranty. Just remember that these "slickers" know that MB's can drive a pretty big price, and there willing to "slick" anyone into them at a very high price, so that they can spend a week this winter in the "Virgin Islands" off of an extra $4,000.00 that they just "slicked" off of a very nice and well deserved buyer.

However, You did get the car that you wanted and if thats what makes a person happy it's all irrevalent as to what anyone on this forum may state. It's just an opinion from those on here.

Send us some pics if you get a chance. Would love to see your car.

gpgunhouse:

For 5 years now I am in the business of selling exceptionally preserved classic cars out of our SoCal location, most of them online via our Web site, quite a few on eBay. Our reputation is "stellar" and our business evolved from two merged, personal classic car collections that at some point simply grew out of hand.
I consider myself a "car guy" with exquisite connections in the business. I'm also a Mercedes afficionado, a Biodiesel guy, and I always do my homework before buying ANYTHING.

I do not want to engage in the dealer discussion more than saying that even in my experience most used and new car dealers have only very limited knowleage of the merchandise they are selling. Like with any other business or purchase, it's smart to do one's homework. Learn about the product you want to buy as much as possible, find out if the source you are buying from is reputable or not. If in doubt, stay away.

That said, as the owner of several Diesel cars--among them an '85 300CD with 46K miles and leather--I myself was in the market for a newer Diesel to replace a high mileage W123TD. My standards are high: nearly flawless car, documented service history, relatively low mileage, and yes, leather interior is a must have for me.

Couldn't find an up to '85 car that would have qualified, and trust me, I have searched the whole country for several months, an open checkbook at hand! What I also couldn't find was a W124 Diesel wagon; most of them had too many miles and MB-Tex interior. Thanks to another, very knowledgeable, board user, Mr. Herbert Phillips III, I learned the insider facts about the '81 to '83-powered 2.5 turbo cars, and the two different '85 3.0 non-turbo-6 models. Especially the '95 Special Edition, of which are only about 1400 were sold, caught my attention. Needless to say, after lifting every rock from California to Texas, I found ONE such car, to this day, looked at it, and liked it very much despite the high mileage of 128K. The seller (wealthy, original SoCal owner) wanted $12,750.00; shamelessly I offered $8,5K the next day. Then 9K. Then $9,5K. Finally, after a week of psychological games I bought it for $9,6K. That's about $1K over the "private sale" Kelley Blue Book value.
So what?

I could not find another one like it. Not one with higher or lower miles, not in another color, not for more or less money. They are rarer than hens' teeth. Although not quite as rare, the same applies to your "regular" '95 E300D. It is a rare car and if your feel it is nice and you played with all those switches and everything works and it's all factory paint and the service history is fully documented . . . by all means, it doesn't matter whether you paid $13,5K or not. You would not be able to find one with such low miles anytime soon, and you don't want one with 160K miles, no matter how long the engine might live. A car is more than an engine, it has a transmission, a butt rubbing on the seats, feet rubbing on the pedals, sandstorms, rain, hail attacking the windshield. A nice, low mileage car always demands a premium and if you compare prices you'll find you paid the fair market value. I would have loved to pay what YOU paid if the one I bought had YOUR car's low mileage.

Congratulations on your purchase. After having driven the whispering DOHC-24-valve-6 at 85mph, looking at burled walnut, enjoying the intoxicating aroma of genuine cow hides on the orthopedic power seats, listening to a CD in the trunk-mounted Mercedes CD-player (which is part of the Bose concert sound system), it's hard to climb back into the W123 rattlebox, as much as I love mine . . .
Bernard

Rarer than hen's teeth. I like that one. I think it applies well.
I know what you mean about the 124 wagon. Less than 2,000 were imported into the United States. Leather upholstery was a rare option on the common 124 alone.

A diamond in the rough would be defined as a 124 wagon with 3rd seat, leather, front heated seats, orthopedic seats, CD changer/stacker, and a low clock. Of course it would have to have a good color combination, too.

What you guys need to realize is that these models are rare and desireable by many. Supply and demand. Prices are higher for near flawless examples, as they should be. However, IMHO, those cars should have full books and records stamped and dated by the new car dealer. The paint should have no blemishes, dings nicks or whatnot. The body should be original and as such, have NO waviness glancing down the sides of the car(orange-peel and Bond-O specials). All accesories should work. Wood should not be faded or cracked, dashboard should not be deeply creased or cracked. Leather should not be faded or worn. Carpets should be fresh, clean and stainless. Etc., etc.

Needless to say, before a car is condemned to being overpriced, look at it yourself in person. Use your own acquired knowledge and statistical analysis to conclude your findings via different car dealers. You may be surprised at the results.

A car is worth what it is worth to you, and to the rest of the world.

__________________
1987 300SDL (324000)

1986 Porsche 951 (944 Turbo) (166000)

1978 Porsche 924 (99000)

1996 Nissan Pathfinder R50 (201000)

gpgunhouse:

1995 E300 Diesel with slightly over 100K miles just sold on eBay before auction end for $16K.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=4506627135&category=6335

Yep, never mind the Blue Book. Pay attention to the real world market.

Bernard

Wow, Congradulations GP. You did a better job after all. the guy on E-Bay must be really proud, after paying $16K.