Petey no starty
 

As it is all over the east coast, the weather sucks.

Trusty old Pete refused to start this morning. I figured the cold got to the battery so I put my fresh 'warm' battery but still no go.

It has no block heater so he is disabled for now until the weather gets warmer. In the future, I may need to keep the car running all night long to make sure I can drive it.

a few questions.....

1. do i use a lot of fuel when the car idles all night long?
2. will the battery need to be recharged now that i have attempted to start the car unsuccessfully for about 10 times?
3. is the starting problem due to a cold-weakened battery? will a battery 'jacket' help? electric or not.
4. how long can i continuously 'crank' the starter? 5 seconds? 10?
5. i use a diesel 15w40 oil. i assume that is ok to use in the winter.

I'll try to answer some of your questions. I'm sure others will chime in that know more about this than I do:

1. Don't know. Never done that.
2. That probably depends on the condition the battery was in.
3. The cold weather starting problem is due to the inability to get your combustion chamber hot enough to help ignite the fuel. Bad glow plugs can be a culprit. Out of adjustment valves can also cause you to lose compression which would make it harder to start.
4. I would never crank it more than 30 seconds and then I would let it cool for two minutes before cranking it again.
5. Most people say that synthetic oil makes winter starting a lot easier.

Don't give up on your car. Mine almost didn't start this morning either. It rarely gets that cold where we are so you shouldn't have that problem very often.

Good luck.

Scott

Answers for Ya-

1.- Won't use a lot as Diesels idle so lean. However, this is not a good idea for other reasons- low oil pressure during prolonged idle means top end of engine will not be lubed sufficiently. (That is why there is a fast idle knob on dash- but with fast idle, you will consume more fuel). Also, at idle, engine temperature will drop substantially- on a real cold night enough to affect combustion, and this will result in carbon buildup
2.- when you crank down a battery, it needs to be recharged immediately after, or internal shorting of cells could result if sitting to long discharged
3.- batteries lose a lot of efficiency when cold, so a battery warmer is a good investment- so is a block heater, and you plug the two in together.
4.- if engine is starting to come to life while cranking, don't let go- keep cranking until it actually starts- the diesel starter is built to take this kind of abuse, because your first chance may be your only chance
5.- 15W40 is too thick for winter use. You should look for a synthetic or semi-synthetic 5W40

Short quick advice- get your glow plug system checked / repaired, get valves checked / adjusted, go to 5W40 oil, and put in a block heater. Either that, or put the car away for winter and enjoy the road insurance savings.

Dave

1976 White 300D W115 "Pearl"

1. About 1/2 liter per hr, seems like I remember our Jetta is at about 1/4L per hour.
2. Depends on how long you let it turn and shape of battery.
3. Could be, could be glow plug(s), fuel gelled, could be loose nut behind wheel. :D
4. Depends on condition of starter & battery. I would crank no more then 10 to 15 seconds then let cool for a minute or so.
5. Depends on condition of car, temps car exposed to, and if synthetic or not. Non synthetic 15W-40 will be as thick as 120W gear oil is at room temp, makes it hard for engine to crank fast enough to start. If synthetic, it will be much better then nonsynthetic, but I run 5W-40 Mobil Delvac 1/ Mobil 1 Truck & SUV oil pretty much year around without any problems instead of the Mobil 1 15W-50 synthetic.

The 240D was left out last night to test cold starting and this morning at 19* F she fired right up 30 seconds after glow light went out, sounded like hell, but it smoothed out in just a few seconds. :D I thought last night it was to be down around 10* F, but no 2 weather sites or TV station's have same prediction.

Ok, I've got an idea, don't know if it'll work though. How about blasting a hair drier or heat gun if you have one in the air intake so the air going into the engine is warmer to begin with. I've heard of people using a blow torch or similar in the intake of old tractors to get them started in really cold weather so I'm theorizing that a hair drier would have the same effect. The 5.9 Cummins in Dodge pickups also uses a grid-heater that heats the air in the intake instead of using glow plugs.

How about hot coals under the engine? If you have absolutely nothing, then pop the hood and maneuver the car so the sunlight is hitting the engine.

Scott

So Lil'Pete had a case of the Mondays?

I've been told that a idling diesel uses about 1/6 the fuel that a gasser uses.

These cars were designed for taxi use, lots of idling. Sometimes you won't get good coolant flow to your heater core. That's why they put the aux pump in the newer models. But that's the worst that'll happen. I've know some people to have let there cars idle for sereral days.

Charge your battery before the next attempt.

Change your oil to 0w-30 or 0w-40. I was talking to whunter the other day and he mentioned that after changing his oil, his cold cranking spped increased about 70%.

Cranking speed is a key to getting these beasts to start in the cold.

Michael is correct with this. I strongly encourage you to get some synthetic oil for that engine. You can get Rotella synthetic for $13.00 per gallon at Wal-mart. It's not the best synthetic you can buy, but, for a few dollars more than dino oil, you will get a good bit more cranking speed out of it.

Of course, the block heater will be the best solution for the whole problem.

Is everyone running block heaters all night or just a few hours. In DC it go to about 8 degrees F last night and I had the timer kick the block heater on about 4 am. Did not do a lot, or so it seemed. Very rough start. I did test my Block heater using the light bulb test and it did dim. After last year I was never really sure that it worked at all.

So, is running it all night the answer?

Alan, running all night is definitely not the answer.

If the block heater is working, the engine should start like it was 50 degrees outside.

One question:

Did you leave the plugs on for an extended period (30 seconds) before the first crank? The 603 definitely requires this, even in warmer temperatures.

If so, then the block heater may need an additional couple of hours. There is normally no requirement to leave it on all night. However, I have done this with the 617 because I have no timer for it. The 617 thoroughly enjoyed the experience. :D

IT, being the block heater, not the car! :eek:

My neighbors (and my wife) would hang me from the highest limb if I tried that
:cool:

Oooooppss. My mistake. :o

With regard to the block heater, maybe give it a try overnight when it is very cold (less than 15 F.) and see what it does.

I have no personal advice on the 603 and my advice on the 617 is limited to running the block heater all night.

Is your SDL down for the winter? What do you do with that?

Definitely not. It just has not been started at any cold temperatures yet.
I don't normally take it out with the exception of my weekly visits to CT, or when I have an interstate business trip.

It's the SD that is in for the winter due to that damn head gasket. However, I'll try to get it out in late January for a run if the temperatures are up and the roads are clean.

I was plugging mine in for 2-3 hours and she fires right up like summer. But that was just down to the 20's. When she is running agian we will see how the cold temps affect starting.

I had only been plugging my block heater in for about an hour before I leave in the morning. While easier to start, it was still stuborn. Bwcause of the extreme cold last night and the lack of a timer, I plugged it in for about 8 hours before I left. The SD started almost immediatley after one glow cycle.

Check your glow plugs, I bet you have marginal performance on them, and at least one or two burned out. check the resistance across them with a multimeter, one by one. Less than 1 ohm of resistance is good, more than one is marginal, and no continuity means totally dead.

I got my 300TD started in 20ishF weather on only three GPs by boiling two gallons of water, taking it outside, and slowly (carefully) pouring it over the cylinder head and combustion chamber area around the injectors, trying to keep it from splashing onto too much other stuff. By the time I slowly poured through the two gallons, the head was warm to the touch. I got in the car, went through a full 60ish second GP cycle, and it fired right up. Ran rough for a little while, but it did the job. Oh, and this was after a 100W trouble light under the hood for a few hours and an 1875W hair dryer had been put into the intake for a while. Neither of those helped, or even produced a sensation of warmth on the block. The boiling water heated it up pretty quick though, and finally got it started.

Peace,
sam

Mine were all at 1.0 or 1.1 ohm.

I know it SHOULD start without help colder, but it doesn't. I'll recheck the valves, change the oil and it already has a new starter.

My '75 300D has started at -20F before without the block heater.

IMHO, a healthy diesel should start alright in the mid teens. It was about seventeen on my thermometer and mine fired up fine on the first glow cycle this morn at 5am. All my VW's were this way as well. You don't *need* synth oil, block heaters, etc, etc when in the teens.

Jen, you likely need glow plug help, valve adjustment(though they have to be bad off to hurt starting), a battery, compression, a diesel WILL start in cold weather. I'm not far from you and it's not THAT cold(I'm from Oklahoma) :)

We have an air cooled three cylinder diesel at work on an air compressor that starts on these mornings and it has NO glow plugs, I'm yet to figure that one out.

Last winter I installed an oil pan heater instead of replacing my shorted block heater. Pad was about 8" by 8" if I remember right. It had a glue pad on one side plus I ran some RTV around the edges. Set a timer to come on an hour before I left. I really helped her start easier. Probably not as good as a real block heater, but all I need for a normal Northern Virginia winter.

This might be a cheaper ($30), quicker (15 min) after you troubleshoot the glowplugs.

Few thoughts:

1. Battery blanket (plug in type) will help. Battery loses half its cranking power at 0 degrees.

2. Get your fuel from a big truck stop. They usually have conditioner in the fuel to hold off gelling.

3. Thinner oil for sure. 0W40 or 5W40 synthetic.

4. Valve adjustment, like folks have said.

5. Injection pump timing. Recently I tried to adjust the timing on my '83 300D (daughter is driving it right now). Tried using MBs little tool that goes in side of pump. Turns out could not use it since there was damage to the tab it connects to in the pump. I could however set it pretty darn close by eyeballing the tab in the pump and setting it in the center of the hole. Found out I had to push the pump as far as I could towards the block to get to that setting. I suspect someone has the timer gear one tooth off. Car starts a lot easier now and I managed to start it real easy on a 15-20 degree morning a few days ago.

Hmmmmm.....I jumped into my car this morning....turned the key, watched the light go out and zoom, she started right up!!

Now, tomorrow morning, when it's down in the 20's may be different, but so far, no problems.

oh...and it's currently 74 degrees here at 1:21pm..... hmmmm...

Not sure what the big fuss is about :) :rolleyes:

Here's some cold starting rules I use:
Good battery
Upgraded turbo starter
Synthetic oil
No series glow plugs--strictly parallel
Glow 3 times before even trying

I pluged the panzer and it started fine at -26C I have the original block heater and it wass plugged all night long ( buy i guess an hour or two will have the same effect ).
It really make a difference if the engine componets/oil is a bit hot. ALso if is not that cold you can make the car take 2 glowplug cycles ( you will hear a Click when the glowplug cycle is finished it takes longer then the glowplug light in the dash)
The jetta started fine without being pluged. Get yourself a cheap heater (zerostart or something like that) is under 100$ easy to install and you will do fine (i'll put one in my jetta next week no more driving in dog cold weather)

It is most likely a Direct Injection diesel. These have much less heat loss from the compressed air in the cylinder, and when the Injector sprays the fuel it fires - every time. I bet it is a noisy engine too.

Indirect Injection was favoured because of its lower noise performance in passenger cars.
Direct injection is having a resurgence due to turbocharging, High Pressure, common rail systems and computer controls to minimise emissions and noise.

It was 8 below the other morning. All the diesels were quiet, as I switched to the gasser. Yet, my son's 98 Jetta TDI, which DOES NOT have a block heater
and running 15w 40 Rotella, cranked twice and gave up. Jumped it and it started right up...ran good the rest of the day. It has a 4 year old battery.

I had to plug in my 300d in for about 4 hours to have it pop off at zero... Its running a blend of Mobil 1 15w40 and Rotella 15w40...It'll start for the rest of the day and at night for the homeward bound trip. The 350 sdl stays in the garage!!

Interisting, it probibly is direct injection, and it's air cooled. And god yes it's loud.

If it's below freezing outside at night, I leave the block heater plugged in all night. It starts right up in the morning with 10 seconds worth of glowing. If I don't plug it in, it has to glow for 30 - 45 seconds or else it will run rough cylinders for 30 seconds or so. It's probably about time to check the glowplugs.

The nice thing about leaving the block heater plugged in is the instant warm air when you start the engine. It takes about 3 - 5 minutes to get heat from a stone cold engine.

I hope all starts go well for the next few days. Here in Houston, we're going to have 36 hours straight of temperatures below 32 degrees F, and the weatherman says Houston may get 1-3 inches of snow on Christmas Eve, and sand trucks on standby. :eek: Won't sand cause rust?
-Joe

Nowhere near as much as salt does :D

Find a good 300D Turbo (617.952) starter and swap that in. It cranks over MUCH faster than the 240D starter (and thereby increases compression heat and shortens starting time dramatically.)

That's got to be more fun than a carnival. Watching all the sh$tboxes go flying off I-35 and down into the ditch. :D

Brian, why would it NOT be a good idea to plug in the block heater all night? I plug my 85 300D in all day at work and all night at home for the instant heat and have had no problems whatsoever. Starts like its 80 degrees outsice.

I've always plugged mine in for the entire night on the SD.

The main reason to avoid this is the cost. A 400w heater would cost $.05 per hour where I am. Eight hours equals about $.40. If you plug it in every night it costs about $12.00 per month. That's not terribly high, however, if three hours on the heater would do the job............?

I'd be sure to check the glow plug resistances from the relay plug (on the drivers fenderwell by the washer bottle on my 300D)-could have a bad harness-also take a voltmeter and check for voltage at each glowplug. Do a search on alternate forms of starting if your compression is really low(wd-40, etc.)-I carry a can of starting fluid for extreme emergencies only-but a ONE SECOND SHOT ONLY!!!!! :eek: It's hard on the engine, but I figure if I blow it up then I'll get to rebuild it :cool:

We got a few flurries and some sleet today. Nobody flew off the interstate, but there were quite a few people slowing down on Highway 288 when sleet/ice was blowing around on the pavement. It's been awhile since I have seen snow here (last time was back in 1989). I think I need to replace a GP, because it was about 30F earlier today, and I had to hold my foot down on the accelerator to get it to start, and there was white smoke all over the place. But, it ran great after that.
-Joe