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  #46  
Old 10-29-2006, 03:47 PM
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Originally Posted by retmil46 View Post
One potential problem which might explain the 15" reading elsewhere in the system - the filter which connects the small supply hose from the vacuum pump to the 5 way connector, is less than a snug fit in the 5 way connector, slides out quite easily. That will be the first item I try when I get the car back from the body shop - do a temporary sealing job on this connection and check the results, then start moving downstream in the system. Time to invest in a set of golf tees.

I've no idea if only having 15" vacuum supplied to the VCV would cause it's output to fall down to 1" instead of 11".
If you still have the five way connector, you should get rid of all the items that are on the right side of the vehicle. Two of those lines head over for EGR functions and they frequently leak. There is a very clean "F" connector that can replace the five way.......available from the dealer. I can dig up the p/n if you wish.

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  #47  
Old 10-29-2006, 04:25 PM
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Thanks for the offer on the p/n, I may take you up on it later.

But I may as well wait until I get the beast back from the body shop (another week at least by my guess). All the checks I mentioned were just quick off-the-cuff readings the day before it went in the shop. Once I get it back and can take the time to really do some troubleshooting, that F connector may have some company on the "parts to order" list!

In essence, you did answer my overall question - I've got some basic vacuum problems to run down, and potentially a misadjusted/bad VCV, judgment on the VCV pending getting it supplied with proper vacuum.
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Just say "NO" to Ethanol - Drive Diesel

Mitchell Oates
Mooresville, NC
'87 300D 212K miles
'87 300D 151K miles - R.I.P. 12/08
'05 Jeep Liberty CRD 67K miles
Grumpy Old Diesel Owners Club
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  #48  
Old 11-14-2006, 02:17 AM
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Well, I got the beast back from the body shop last Friday. Along with trying to troubleshoot a nonfunctioning RH rear turn signal, I was able to do some further investigating on the vacuum and VCV.

Hooking up the vacuum gauge to the main vacuum supply to the blue amplifier, it once again read 15" at idle.

Disconnecting the EGR line at the 5 way and plugging the port on the 5 way with a golf tee bumped vacuum up to 17".

Doing the same with the ARV vacuum line (both EGR and ARV 5 way ports plugged) kicked vacuum up to 19" at idle.

Revving up the engine to 1000 rpm kicked vacuum up to 20", 1500 rpm up to 21", returning to 19" when back at idle, again read at the vacuum supply to the blue amplifier.

Hooking the vacuum gauge to the output of the amplifier to the tranny modulator, gauge read 9". Stayed at 9" regardless of engine speed.

Hooked up the vacuum gauge to the dashpot on the output of the VCV. Read slightly higher than last time, 1 1/2 to 2". But again, this reading stayed constant regardless of engine speed.

I scribed a matchmark on the adjustment slot of the VCV to get it back into the same position if necessary. I loosened the two mounting bolts, and tried adjusting the VCV clockwise as stated in the FSM.

I moved it in increments, allowing time for the gauge to respond, and occasionally blipping the throttle by hand to see if this would prompt a change.

Nothing. I moved the VCV as far clockwise as it would go, and no change in vacuum. I tried rotating it counterclockwise, back to the original point, and eventually as far as it would go in that direction. Again no change in vacuum.

In short, I tried adjusting the VCV over it's full adjustment range, and got no response as far as a change in vacuum, staying a constant 1 1/2 to 2".

According to the FSM, if you can't get the speced vacuum reading after attempting to adjust it, it's time to replace it.

I'm wondering if it might be worth a shot trying to clean it out. After I purchased the vehicle, I noticed that the small black vent line to the passenger compt on the side of the VCV was disconnected, it's rubber boot having aged and split down the side. I sleeved over the split with another piece of hose and reconnected the vent line. If this vent line had been disconnected for some time, I'm wondering if debris might have gotten sucked inside the VCV and be clogging up the internals.

Otherwise, looks like another 3 figure bill for a new VCV.
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Just say "NO" to Ethanol - Drive Diesel

Mitchell Oates
Mooresville, NC
'87 300D 212K miles
'87 300D 151K miles - R.I.P. 12/08
'05 Jeep Liberty CRD 67K miles
Grumpy Old Diesel Owners Club
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  #49  
Old 11-21-2006, 11:02 AM
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I have to give Phil at Fastlane credit, that man is good at his job. Conversing with him simultaneously by phone and internet, we identified a new VCV back on Friday morning. After submitting the order on the webpage, I had the beast in my hands yesterday afternoon, bloody good service! He even identified a seal that I needed to replace the beast, and gave me the part number so I could order it from the dealer.

Vacuum Control Valve - Fastlane website D3020-75593, MB 140 300 08 33
Seal - MB 123 304 00 60

Not as bad as I expected, VCV was $85 from Fastlane, seal was $5 from the dealer.

Has anyone ever removed/replaced the VCV on a 603 engine? Just wondering if there are any oh-by-the-way's I should watch out for.
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Just say "NO" to Ethanol - Drive Diesel

Mitchell Oates
Mooresville, NC
'87 300D 212K miles
'87 300D 151K miles - R.I.P. 12/08
'05 Jeep Liberty CRD 67K miles
Grumpy Old Diesel Owners Club
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  #50  
Old 11-25-2006, 12:12 AM
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Replaced/Adjusted Vacuum Control Valve on 603

I'm happy to say that blasted mule that has been kicking me in the rear bumper going out the driveway is now long gone!

Today I replaced and adjusted the vacuum control valve. For a 603 engine, this turned out to be a rather simple task.

After removing the two vacuum lines and the vent to the passenger compartment, I loosened and removed the two mounting bolts. The VCV almost fell off the actuating arm on the side of the IP of it's own accord.

Once off, I looked at the actuating arm coming out of the IP, and saw the additional seal that I mentioned in the previous post. Actually, it looks to be little more than a dust/dirt shield for the back side of the VCV. It slides on over the IP actuating arm, and is slotted to fit on a certain way.

The old VCV did indeed turn out to be shot, either plugged/gummed up or broken internally.

After cleaning and reinstalling the dust seal on the IP actuating arm, I slid the new VCV into place and manuvered it back and forth until I felt it engage the slot in the IP actuating arm. I then reinstalled the mounting bolts, leaving them just loose enough to rotate the VCV on the actuating arm.

With a helper reaching in and pulling the throttle linkage to the full throttle stop, I rotated the VCV clockwise until it stopped, and locked down the mounting bolts. I then reinstalled the two vacuum lines, the vent line, and connected a vacuum gauge to the output of the VCV.

After starting the engine and allowing it to settle out, the vacuum gauge displayed 13" vacuum. I reached over and grabbed the throttle linkage, and as I gradually gave it more throttle, the vacuum would gradually decrease. Shutting off the engine, the gauge stayed at 13". I moved the throttle linkage to the full throttle stop, and the gauge dropped to 0. Releasing the throttle linkage and letting it go back to idle, the gauge shot back up to around 9", the residual vacuum in the system and the reservoir. Just as the FSM said it should perform.

Restarting the engine and teeing in to the main vacuum supply to the amplifier, system vacuum was now a healthy 20"! Apparently the old VCV had been leaking badly and dragging down the entire system. As a test, I reconnected the vacuum lines to the EGR and ARV. Vacuum still held on at 20".

But now I may have a different problem. Teeing the vacuum gauge into the amplifier output to the tranny modulator, it's reading 17" at idle. Methinks this is a little on the high side.

There's a hard black plastic cap over what looks to be an extra port on the bottom of the amplifier. Adjustment screw underneath? I didn't fiddle with it for fear of breaking something. Or should the next thing I look at be the tranny modulator itself?

For now at least, a couple of test drives showed a remarkable improvement in shifting. No more banging at low throttle, and shifts under moderate throttle were still good and firm. But still not as good as the '87 I test drove a while back at a local dealer. Still some work to do, but slowly making progress.
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Just say "NO" to Ethanol - Drive Diesel

Mitchell Oates
Mooresville, NC
'87 300D 212K miles
'87 300D 151K miles - R.I.P. 12/08
'05 Jeep Liberty CRD 67K miles
Grumpy Old Diesel Owners Club
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  #51  
Old 11-25-2006, 12:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by retmil46 View Post
There's a hard black plastic cap over what looks to be an extra port on the bottom of the amplifier. Adjustment screw underneath? I didn't fiddle with it for fear of breaking something. Or should the next thing I look at be the tranny modulator itself?

For now at least, a couple of test drives showed a remarkable improvement in shifting. No more banging at low throttle, and shifts under moderate throttle were still good and firm. But still not as good as the '87 I test drove a while back at a local dealer. Still some work to do, but slowly making progress.
Yep, 17" is definitely a bit high. I've got both of these down around 9-10". I don't like the typical soft shifts from these trans.

Remove the black plastic cap and you'll find a screw that requires a 4mm socket. Probably have to make the trip to Sears. Turn this screw fully clockwise, reinstall the amplifier, and check the vacuum at idle. Hopefully, it's down near 11-12". You won't likely get lower unless you adjust the VCV to the rail........contrary to the manual.
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  #52  
Old 11-25-2006, 01:29 AM
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Reading back thru the entire thread, I now see that there's something else I need to confirm before fiddling any further with vacuum.

I need to hook up a boost gauge and see what the turbo is kicking out, adjust if necessary. Then hook up the vac gauge to the modulator line and see what it does going down the road.

I suspect an ALDA tweak may be in order as well, kinda doggish accelerating until it hits around 2000 rpm and then suddenly wants to rev up like a rocket.
__________________
Just say "NO" to Ethanol - Drive Diesel

Mitchell Oates
Mooresville, NC
'87 300D 212K miles
'87 300D 151K miles - R.I.P. 12/08
'05 Jeep Liberty CRD 67K miles
Grumpy Old Diesel Owners Club
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  #53  
Old 11-25-2006, 08:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by retmil46 View Post
Reading back thru the entire thread, I now see that there's something else I need to confirm before fiddling any further with vacuum.

I need to hook up a boost gauge and see what the turbo is kicking out, adjust if necessary. Then hook up the vac gauge to the modulator line and see what it does going down the road.

I suspect an ALDA tweak may be in order as well, kinda doggish accelerating until it hits around 2000 rpm and then suddenly wants to rev up like a rocket.
The boost is a separate issue. It won't affect anything on the vaccum to the modulator until you actuall get some boost above 2500 rpm.

It certainly should be checked and adjusted, if necessary, but, it won't have much of an effect on the modulator unless you have no boost. Clearly, that's not the case.

An ALDA adjustment will definitely assist. Removing the ALDA altogether will be even more satisfying.
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  #54  
Old 05-17-2009, 03:13 AM
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vcv troubles and no VA??

Wow super nice thread, i do have one question, on my 85td(non turbo euro) i suspect a bad vcv, my main symptom is a hard shift into second, i DO NOT HAVE A Blue amplifier? my vcv has a red color plastic( instead of the blue on the 603) is this how euros were shipped with vacuum going from booster hose to vcv without a VA(blue thing), when i put mighty vac to the vcv i get 14 reading but when i hit throttle pressure does not drop?
Could this be the reason i have a hard shift into second?
below is a picture of my set up, my vcv part number is faded and the plastic is red.
thanks
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  #55  
Old 05-17-2009, 04:10 AM
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I don't see the picture. Sounds like you have an M pump.

The 'pressure' you refer to is actually vacuum. In order to measure this you will need to tee into the line coming from the VCV without disrupting the routing.
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  #56  
Old 05-17-2009, 05:06 PM
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I have 1987 300D and tranny shifts needed help after removing ALDA and adjusting IP timing, read: got my power back. Now, the go pedal really works and does a lot in the first 1/4 push of travel. What I was finding was too-soon shifts and too soft.

My vac measurement on the hose going to the tranny was 18 inHg idel, and full mash on the pedal dropped it to around 5 until the engine warmed (>50*C and that switchover kicked in) then I could get vac down to maybe 2. When driving I was going through all four gears in the period of a hundred feet and vac was only dropping to about 14 when I was driving soft on the pedal.

Shifts were better spaced and less soft when driven hard. Pulled the vac off the tranny completely just to test, and I was getting good hard shifts more properly spaced.

Sooo... thanks to this thread, I first adjusted the blue flying saucer hex screw full clockwise. A bit better but no biggy. I checked the "throttle" linkage and cable and no slack, and full range of motion end to end. So I "advanced" the VCV vacuum control valve (on the IP) by slacking its two bolts off and rotating the unit counter-clockwise, as far as it would go.. I'm guessing I bought myself around 5* degrees of rotation maybe. This made a larger difference.

Now, with these settings max vac at idle has dropped to about 13 and hammering the pedal on a warm engine drives the needle down to zero. I've got good turbo boost starting at 2300 RPM goes up to 10 psi, and I've got kick-down at full pedal mash it drops a gear right NOW, firmly. Letting off kickdown I gain that gear back, firmly. In normal driving, there is less flaring in all gears and more correctly spaced shifts, although 3-4 comes sooner on the heals of a 2-3 than I think is necessary... Things not 100% but a lot better than it was..

Again, what started my tranny journey off was removing the ALDA - and getting power back. On a previously sluggish car, there was a lot more pedal travel needed to go and a sluggish tranny seemed fitting, better matched.

While I was at it, I removed all the vac circuits hoses plumbing and fittings for devices I didn't want. Gone are the two emissions pods, I also took out the Y30 overboost switchover and related plumbing. My car had the MBenz campaign of 07.1-0250 Retrofitting Damper with Restricted Orifice mod done to it for smoothing out surging on cruise control. This kit included yet another vac switchover valve Y30/1 and a plastic canister about the size of an apple... it's all gone too. That's a lot of spaghetti missing out of the engine compartment now.

Now I just have these vac circuits remaining in the car:
0. vacuum pump, pulling 22 inHg like it should
1. brake booster
2. engine stop
3. transmission (vac control and vacuum amplifier and dashpots)
4. "other anciliaries" (leading into cabin for climate, door locks, etc)
5. vacuum storage canister hidden under the right front fender

I'm just wondering with my dials and settings for tranny vac devices now basically at their max positions, I'm wondering how I can get 13 inHg down to maybe 10 inHg as the starting point at idle? I had some yellow restrictors in the all the Y's around the blue pod and replaced them with straight tube sections.. maybe I need to restrict them down a little tighter and I went the wrong way by replacing them with straight tube.

I'll play with those next.

Cheers
Scott

Last edited by scottmcphee; 05-19-2009 at 11:36 AM.
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  #57  
Old 05-18-2009, 10:31 PM
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1987 w124 300D
 
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I had a spare orange vacuum orifice, pretty tiny hole inside, so I tried it in various locations on the tranny circuit to see if I could bring that 13 inHg down. Various things did affect monitored vac but not in good ways. Some combos slowed down the rate of drop, or limited its range (raised the bottom). Some things slowed the rate of vac rise when returned to idle.

The only "near successful" thing I tried was introducing a controlled leak on the tranny line itself using a T joint and orange orifice to open air. This dropped vacuum to about 10 at idle on the tranny line, but created a very touchy vacuum dive when pedal was applied, dropped like a rocket to zero and then of course harsh bangs into gear. I also started hearing "blowoff" style hissing, but it seemed to come from down under the car. Tried on both sides of the green dashpot, more success on one side versus the other, forget which.

Oh well... returned the tranny vac lines to stock. I've determined my vac is good, maybe "too good". Maybe the VCV has softened and is not bleeding as much as it should for a given twist of the go pedal.

I think the best thing would be if more "advance" on VCV at the IP were available. More counter-clockwise rotation, but it's at adjustment limits now. This had the biggest effect on bringing down the initial vac, and is the best source of controlled leak - since that's what it is meant to do. I have a spare old VCV and might try making a modified plate to do more advance. Maybe if it is just worn, swapping a different one may show that as the problem no extra advance required.

Another thing I haven't tried is removing the blue UFO vac amplifier completely, and just hook the VCV to tranny via a dashpot.

Just for fun, I'll give that a shot and see what happens. At least vac changes are quick and easy to do and undo and give immediate feedback in test runs...

Cheers
Scott McPhee


Last edited by scottmcphee; 05-19-2009 at 11:54 AM.
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