TD Conversion
 

:o I am considering putting a 616 with a 5 speed manual tranny into a "82" Euro TD (non turbo) wagon. I bought the car cheap because It wasn't running,... thers no rust, its a nice color (anthracite gray), the interior is in great shape with manual heater controls, all in all a nice car except the engine has LOW compression and the trannys toast, anyway, rebuilding the eng and tranny are options I have been considering but theres another one. The TD weighs 490# more than a 240D sedan but the 616 engine is about 300 # lighter than the 617 engine. So the TD with the 616 engine would be LESS than a couple hundred lbs heaver than the sedan. I am quite happy with the power I have with the wifes 240D that I rebuilt the engine in, (bought over size pistons so its plenty spunky, for a 240). I am thinking of transplanting that engine and tranny, I realize that I would have to put in new springs and regular shocks in the rear but I dont think that would be a problem. I dont have a doner car yet for pedals, linkage etc... So this is just a thought. I really like this wagon and so does the wife. I sure wanted to drive it before I committed all the $ and energy into it but it doesn't look like thats gona happen. So is it too crazy, putting a four banger in a wagon??

Does it have the self leveling rear suspension ? That is usually the tricky part on these deals...

First of all, whereintheheckdidjafindafivespeed?

Other than a distinct lack of HP, the thorny problem you'll need to overcome will be the absence of an SLS pump in your 616's head. Other than that, there's no reason it wouldn't work, the engine/transmission (616/5-speed) was offered by MBZ in Europe.

NBD, but if you manage to solve the SLS pump issue, you'll need to respring the front end with springs from a 240.

The rear suspension is going to give you the most trouble. People always say, "should be easy to just toss in some gas shocks" but it seems to be way more difficult that most people expect, and the resulting handling is often incredibly poor. In fact I heard of someone who got gas shocks put in, then paid to have them taken out and fixed the original rear suspension because the handling was so bad. In fact, I'm not sure if I've heard of any TDs that have been converted to 'regular' rear suspensions that have satisfied the owners.

That said, you might be able to figure out a way to do it.

Another potential solution would be an electric hydraulic pump for the fluid, but that would be a custom job, and it relies on the assumption that the rear suspension is currently functional in every other way.

Either than that, good luck. The 240TD was popular in Europe, so as long as you aren't expecting a race car (and it doesn't seem like you are), you should be just fine with that engine's power.

peace,
sam

If you use the rebuilt engine and trans from your 240D couldn't you use take the pedal box etc. out of that car? What I'm I missing here? 240TD wagons were available in Germany. I'm not sure if those cars had the self leveling suspension or not. You should probably also swap the differental from the 240D so you get the lower gearing. That would also allow you to get the springs and shocks etc.

Ultimately it might be cheaper to find a pick and pull 300D motor and trans. Then just use the original head for the rebuild.

Expensive but, another option would be to utilize the siameased belt-driven PS/SLS pump used on the later model (W124??) T-wagens. Some fabrication and head scratching would be in order but, it would be one solution to not having an SLS-compliant 616 head.

Thanks for all the replys....Rear suspension.. Yah it has the self leveling. I was thinking of just being able too buy new rear springs, as the SLS uses lighter ones, maybe springs for a 300 sedan and regular shocks.

phidauex

"I'm not sure if I've heard of any TDs that have been converted to 'regular' rear suspensions that have satisfied the owners."

Yah, that would be allot of trouble to go through and have a crappy handling ride, thats what I'm throwing the idea out for...Anybody out there use sedan springs and reguler shocks. Dont think I would be up for the extra hassle of a separate pump.

"R Leo First of all, whereintheheckdidjafindafivespeed? "

Ha, Ha. :D Last fall I found a badly neglected Euro 240D with a 5 spd, guy didnt know what he had, turned out to be a real nice car after fixing all the usual stuff (and then some). I swapped the tranny into my wifes car and sold it. Actually it had a trailer hitch and a SLS system, had to replace the air cells then it worked fine.

I would like to carry my dogs around and just have the extra room for cargo that a wagon would provide and it would be perfect for the wife to haul kids around.

"If you use the rebuilt engine and trans from your 240D couldn't you use take the pedal box etc. out of that car? "

No, cause I would sell that car after putting another eng and 4 spd in it, its a nice car but it aint a wagon :D

Maybe rebuilding the 617 would would be the best route.
Thanks again for all the input. I'm going to ask around and see if I can find anyone that has solved the rear suspension problem and is happy with it.

You MAY be able to just transplant the hydraulic pump from the 5 cyl onto your 240 engine. My Euro 240D has the same hydraulic rear suspension as my 300TDT! It's pretty rare, but it may mean that there's a spot to put the pump on the 240D engine.

Once upon a time we had an 81 300TD. (We had it for 21 years). We had the rear suspension fixed several times. Finally my dad purchased some non load-levelling shocks for it. There was never a complaint, and honestly it handled quite well. It even did well with a load in the back, although it did sit lower. I wish that we had kept the information about the shocks, but they were an off-the-shelf application for another vehicle.

So it can be done.

-Tad

McRoth

I remember you bought a TD about the same time I bought this one, but yours is a driver :D How do you like it compared to your sedan, still nimble in the parking lot? As much fun to drive?

I sold the Euro 240D with the SLS, it was the first 240D I had ever heard of with SLS, unfortunately I had to sell the head with the car :D


Sam

Humm...thanks. When I had that 240D with SLS I measured the dia of the material the coil spring was made from and the reguler 240D material was , if I remember right maybe, 3 mm more. Thats why I was thinking changing springs ALSO might do the trick. Woulda been interesting to know if your Dads car woulda sat higher with beefer springs.

Stevo, I really like driving mine. It handles really well & has a really nice smooth ride. Does well in the parking lot too, seems to manuver much like my 240D, even better with the power steering!

my old 240D had self levelling :) If you get rid of the SLS, just replace the springs with proper ones from a non SLS wagon (did they have non SLS wagons where you are?) and get some gas shocks and you''ll be fine.

could someone post a link/pic of the w124 PS/SLS arrangement?

FWIW wagon and sedan are the same wheelbase and, from forward of the back edge of the front doors, identical for all intents and purposes.

In the collection, I have both wagon and sedan and in town, I can't tell any real difference but I do prefer the wagon's handling characteristics on the highway...decidely more sure-footed than the sedan. The ONLY drawback to the wagon is that the cabin is louder. I get more road noise from the cargo area.

Good feed back...thanks

black280ce

I would imagine that finding "non SLS wagon" rear springs would be harder than finding 5 speed trannys here in the states, not sure tho, my mechanic buddy seems to think 300D springs would work, not sure what hes basing that on.

Randy...I did follow your great thread about your transplant but don't remember just why you had to change front springs, you put a 4 spd behind your 617, right, what affect did that have on the front end?

I gota admit that one of the big reasons I'm considering the 616 transplant is because "I have it" and swapping out 616 engs has become easy for me cause I've done a few.. also the idea of all the $ & time I would put into rebuilding the 617 to put into a car I haven't driven, thats a little scarry, Anyway you guys have given lots of good input to mull over, sounds like driving a wagon is "as good", too "better" than the sedan. :D

This thread covers the whys of swapping springs.

Looking at my 240D with the 617 engine, I'm thinking I may need 300D springs. I have quite a bit of rake (looks cool) and quite a bit of negative camber....

:confused: I'm not sure I'm absorbing everything that's been said here so far...it seems that some are saying that there is a way of improving the handling of a 300TD that no longer has its original hydraulic rear suspension w/o reinstalling the hydro suspension. Can this be true? I've not heard of a non-SLS wagon or non-SLS springs; would these springs really fix the handling? Where do you get them? It's hard for me to believe it could be that easy. I have a 1980 300TD that has had the original hydro suspension removed completely and I do not like how it handles. I put new Bilsteins in the back, replacing the worn gas shocks that were there, and this has just seemed to make the handling worse. The car is in good condition otherwise and I'm considering having the hydro suspension (re)installed. But if I could solve the problem with different rear springs that sure would be a great option. Advice would be greatly appreciated.

How bad are your suspension bushings?
I purposely dropped the front end of my car, but replaced all the bushings and mine aligns in factory spec.

Wagon68

I don't know what was done when your system was changed but I think different coil springs would be necessary as the ones with the SLS system were never intended to work with regular shocks. There are "gray market" wagons around that never had SLS and so I would assume there might be coil springs in a junk yard "someplace". I may try 300D springs. I haven't even pulled the engine & tranny yet but I am still planning to go with a 616 and a 5 spd. :)

According to the 1983 Technical Data manual (for all Mercedes worldwide) all wagons had the SLS. There were some standard wheelbase custom-body vehicles ("ambulances, transports, funeral coaches") with standard suspension, however. These used spring 116 324 09 04 at the rear. Since these bodies were built by third parties, it's not clear if the spring perch is at the sedan or wagon height.

All 240TDs apparently had SLS as standard equipment.

Ted

"All 240TDs apparently had SLS as standard equipment"

Ted

Huh...didnt know that, I stand corrected :rolleyes:

"spring 116 324 09 04 at the rear" So this would be the spring that fits the 300TD then? All I have to do is find a MB ambulance in the wrecking yard then :D

Ok, this is the key. If you're willing to buy new springs, all you need is the part number for the non-SLS rear spring. And there is such an animal - leathermang had a non-SLS wagon at one time. Apparently it was not available in 1982, according to the info from the technical data manual mentioned above. But it definitely was available at some earlier time, and you should still be able to buy the parts. Finding them in the junkyard might be near impossible, but call Phil and see what he can come up with. I was quite surprised to find out when I bought the 300D that Phil (Fastlane) can look up and order euro-only parts with hardly any more trouble than U.S. parts.

thanks, I wasnt sure where I heard about TDs w/o SLS but as soon as I'm done with the 240D I'm working on now I am gona pull the engine on the TD and decide what to do. I think new springs are only about $60.00 ea but if I go with the 616 then 240D springs would probably be needed in the front, meaning 4 springs ;-);-)

I just talked to Phil and the replacement springs for the NON SLS TDs are $300.00 for the pair :eek:

Rick,
If the non-SLS wagon you are thinking of is the parts wagon Greg currently has, it originally had SLS and was 'converted' to non-SLS by a PO using some rude fittings and strange shocks. All the SLS tubing from engine compartment to rear is intact in that car and you can see where the accumulators were bolted in place (no dirt around the mounting studs).

Thanks for the clarification, Randy. I was under the impression that Greg's wagon was non-SLS from the factory. Hmm, maybe this afternoon's project will be to find where he said that. ;)

Anyway, Stevo found the info he needed.

Hummm

:) Maybe getting back toward square one. I will keep looking into this as I would really like to drive a wagon but it hasta handle as well as the sedan or whats the point. :)

I spent some time laying under that wagon, and it was a fairly crude conversion. The coil springs had rubber spacers inside each spring in one place, kind of link a NASCAR spring rubber. That couldn't have been a very good ride. They were either trying to get the ride height correct or stiffen things up.
SLS is your friend. When it isn't working it's your expensive friend, but your friend none the less. Promise.....

sls pump alternative
 

I changed the motor in my 83 TD with one from an 85 SD,hence no sls pump on the head. What I did was to use a pump from a convertable top mechanism. Got it off EBAY. I wired a relay in and have a switch in the glove box. If I want to raise the car, I hit the switch and the pump runs. These pumps use alot of juice so you want to wire it through a relay, directly to the battery. I mounted the pump next to the plastic hydraulic fluid tank in the engine compt. Had to get a fitting to hook the factory hydraulic line to the convertable top pump. Works like a charm, problem solved! HTH Mike

Of course I am required by law to ask if you can post a pic of your pump situation. :D

Westkill,
I've very interested in finding out any more details too. I have the same situation; transplanted non-wagon engine.

westkill

Good idea...So the system "holds where it is (assuming its not leaking) and you just hit the switch when you need to adjust the height...I like that. I use a Ford relay to activate my glow plugs. Thanks for the tip. I will post any thing I learn about springs too.

Westkill

"a pump from a convertable top mechanism."

A couple questions about your pump set up if you would be so kind 1)Any conflict with running the mineral based fluid required for the MB SLS? 2) Any particular brand , convertable top mechanism pump, MB, Ford, BMW? What criteria did you use when shopping for the pump?

Yours sounds like a much better solution than messing with the springs.

THe pump is from a Chevy Cavalier I think. The pump has 3 wires. Ground and 2 power wires, 1 for each direction. It is a power up and down. You only need power up So pick one wire and note which way pump "pushes" the fluid. On the supply to the pump attach it to your existing SLS fluid tank.. On the hi pressure hose originally on your pump attached to the head, unbolt it at the fitting by the coil spring tower. Measure the hose for new length, bring the hose and pump to a hydraulic shop, they'll put a new end on it to connect to the new pump.. connect it up and your done. I filled the system with tractor hydraulic fluid.
The electrical end is important. These pumps draw ALOT of juice. Use a relay (Ford starter solenoid is best) and wire it directly to the battery. Put a switch in the cab. When you energize the pump it will groan alot until the vehicle hits the height you selected via the arm attached over the rear dif. Once its there, it just recirculates the fluid, just like the factory pump. I never let it run more than 10 seconds at a clip. Pumps the car right up. If it gets too hot, It will shut down on its own till it cools.
I have attached a link to photos of the car. You will notice the pump was moved lower in the car. This was due to Euro Headlight installation interference. Hope this helps. Mike

http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/westkill1/album?.dir=e0fe

Mike

Thanks so much...I like that blue, very nice looking wagon. I would imagen she really looks good with the euro lights.

I was talking to a friend today and he suggested using the pumps that power hydraulic trim tabs on fast boats. (many sizes too chose from) Sounds like you didn't worry comparing GPMs for both pumps as that wouldn't be that critical,? goes up slow or fast, wouldnt matter, I spoz... About the "groaning, Do you think a little bigger pump might solve that, probably draw too much more juice? I just happen to have a couple of Ford solenoids lying around too.....Thanks again, I have never driven the wagon but I'm reasonably sure it will be worth replacing our sedan with. I'm now inspired to get going on it :D

Steve,
The reason I liked that pump was its size. Nice and small. In all honesty, I might use it once every 2 weeks and only for a few seconds. Pumps it right back up such as when I have it loaded down with stuff. I try to solve problems the easy way. After I swapped motors I said what other hydraulic pump could I use. I considerd an engine mounted pump driven by belt, similar to a snow plow pump but size was a problem. Also some Benz with gas motors had a dual stage power steering pump IE: front section steering/rear section suspension alot of $$$$ though. This fit the bill.
Thanks for the compliment on the Wagon. I paid $100 for that car with a blown motor-no kidding. ;) Car has 221K on it, motor has 122K. Drives beutiful. Euro lights "made it". Really classed it up. Have to add some new photos.
Enjoy Mike