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  #31  
Old 06-07-2005, 01:57 PM
Brandon314159
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LJ DERBY
Thanks Brandon, I surely do appreciate the offer and I might take you up on it after I take the EGR valve off and have a look. The wind and rain have put a delay into doin much work in the driveway. Will let you know how things turn out when I can get to it.


Lee
Sounds good to me

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  #32  
Old 06-07-2005, 08:46 PM
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Location: Bryan Texas
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Got the EGR valve out today in between showers. It's remarkably clean in there at least as compared to my "D" when I put in a blocking plate. It just looked loke there was some oil on the surfaces, but there was no gasket so I made one and put it back together. Absolutely no change.


Lee
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'83 300D 283,000 mi.
'88 Jaguar XJ40 132,000 mi.(sold)
'88 Olds 88 190,000 mi.(given to grandson)
'81 300SD 313,000 mi. (given to granddaughter)
Maintained by Me and my offspring.
ESCHEW OBFUSCATION
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  #33  
Old 06-07-2005, 09:52 PM
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Leathermag, thanks for the clarification and you are right. My belief although questionable is someone removed a line from the pump by the other method of unscrewing the two bolts and after had timing problems with that cylinder compared to the rest of the pump. May have been the washers.Perhaps he dug in too deep. Think it disturbs something or he did. I could not understand why he did it that way but could easily understand his regret as to get it back was as you suggest it involved a pump shop. On the otherhand his misteak was human as have done several things the hard way myself over the years and only upon completion saw the easier way. Now on this engine if the knock is new that thought can be almost totally disregarded unless the knock has been there since purchase of the car. Can somewhat understand the knock from the prechambers but cannot figure a 30 rpm gain with injector line loosened unless fuel is introduced much earlier than normal on that one cylinder. Would of course become less noticable as as rpm picked up. To prove the concept is interesting. First do a normal drip test to see if pump timing is on that way on # 1 but do not adjust pump. Next is a little more involved. You would have to mount a degree wheel on crank pulley and do the drip test on number two line.Actually the #1 should be done with the degree wheel as well so your refferences are absolute. You are only interested in the degrees of difference between the two drip ponts at that stage. I estimate you would not detect up to five degrees or more of abnormal difference with your ear but could be wrong. Should be no different than mathamatical calculations show. Just for a test though could not a spare old injector be modified to open at a higher pressure and put in #1 to see if knock is eliminated or reduced as it should in retarding timing if pump can fire it. If so I would leave it in as it verifys the problem if knock is gone and engine smooth. The only thing i wonder is might #1 may not be getting enough fuel then. The only reason I do think the problem should be located is if the pre-ignition might over time damage that piston. Other opinions would be appreciated and required as I can be wrong and above only my opinions and know from experience do not take them to the bank.

Last edited by barry123400; 06-07-2005 at 10:40 PM.
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  #34  
Old 06-07-2005, 10:33 PM
t walgamuth's Avatar
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Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Lafayette Indiana
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thinking

i agree that this should not be ignored. the devil should be hunted down and slain. injecting too soon would over time i would think be hard on the motor and hard on mileage etc. perhaps bad for bearings too.
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..I also have a 427 Cobra replica with an aluminum chassis.
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  #35  
Old 06-07-2005, 11:09 PM
Brandon314159
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Originally Posted by t walgamuth
i agree that this should not be ignored. the devil should be hunted down and slain. injecting too soon would over time i would think be hard on the motor and hard on mileage etc. perhaps bad for bearings too.
I have a similar noise too I think however loosening my injectors (number 1 specificlaly) slows my engine down
I am about the closest active member to Lee and have computer recording equipment available. As the list of possible problems is trimmed away, I offered him that I could come down and have a ear as well whenever need be.

Us forum members up in the Northwest seem to be frew and far between
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  #36  
Old 06-07-2005, 11:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by t walgamuth
i agree that this should not be ignored. the devil should be hunted down and slain. injecting too soon would over time i would think be hard on the motor and hard on mileage etc. perhaps bad for bearings too.
Advancing the injection timing beyond 24 degrees will make the engine very noisy and it will overheat.


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  #37  
Old 06-08-2005, 12:03 AM
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The thought here is that possibly the one pump element is advanced too much already. The intent would be to bring it back into line or sequence with the others if it proved the fault. If adjusting the overall pump timing by drip test it may fix #1 problem but put the other four pump elements out of time. The overall injection pump timing may be ok at present but extremely dangerous to check and adjust using number one as a refference until it is established that number one pump element is on or off timing in refference to the other four outputs from the pump.. My guess is that if he retimed the pump by #1 now he might land up with an engine of low power but no noise. this is a possible test to identify the problem but you would have to physically mark the pumps position to get back to the position you moved it from. All this is speculation at this time. If by any method he determines this is the problem though several possibly fairly easy cures come to mind that may work out. Yes as you suggest an overadvanced pump can cause overheating and other things. I for one am not suggesting the overall pump is out of timing with the rest of the engine. Or indeed even needs resetting. Just the relationship of the number one pump element to the other four elements. I may be reacting to some confusion here possibly mine it would not be the first time.

Last edited by barry123400; 06-08-2005 at 12:47 AM.
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  #38  
Old 06-08-2005, 12:05 AM
t walgamuth's Avatar
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pumping

it is a confusing problem and i should think unusual.
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[SIGPIC] Diesel loving autocrossing grandpa Architect. 08 Dodge 3/4 ton with Cummins & six speed; I have had about 35 benzes. I have a 39 Studebaker Coupe Express pickup in which I have had installed a 617 turbo and a five speed manual.[SIGPIC]

..I also have a 427 Cobra replica with an aluminum chassis.
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  #39  
Old 06-08-2005, 12:14 AM
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At least since the problem if it exists at all is earlier than the other elements he would not have a worn out pump bore or piston. The injector then would release later if at all. Clouds sometimes have silver linings.

Last edited by barry123400; 06-08-2005 at 12:21 AM.
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  #40  
Old 06-08-2005, 12:36 AM
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Brandon, your engine slowing down a little when loosening #! injector line is what should always happen. If you have a noise that is lessened a little by relaxing that injector you may want to pursue it. Why not start a thread and see what ideals come forward? Description of the noise is almost everything. This fellow incorporated all observable information into his thread. Too many times things that are known by people are not posted until much later if at all..The clues are usually extremely important. Great you offered support to him as thats how friendships are born sometimes.

Last edited by barry123400; 06-08-2005 at 12:56 AM.
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  #41  
Old 06-08-2005, 01:55 AM
Brandon314159
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Quote:
Originally Posted by barry123400
Brandon, your engine slowing down a little when loosening #! injector line is what should always happen. If you have a noise that is lessened a little by relaxing that injector you may want to pursue it. Why not start a thread and see what ideals come forward? Description of the noise is almost everything. This fellow incorporated all observable information into his thread. Too many times things that are known by people are not posted until much later if at all..The clues are usually extremely important. Great you offered support to him as thats how friendships are born sometimes.
Yeah I think on my engine specifically its a leaky injector. With 280k on the clock I figure I can be nice to the engine and have them all rebuilt/pop tested to pressure. I will check precombustion chambers and just clean everything up real nice. Its not as complex a problem as Lee has however its odd that they both do it on number 1 cylinder

I hooked up with Lee at the Northwest GTG last year in WA and this problems seems to be bugging us both.
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  #42  
Old 06-08-2005, 11:48 AM
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I bought this car in August last year. The knock was there when I bought it. (Got it fot $700.00). On the ride home, about 35 mi., my wife followed me and said I left a "cloud" every time I accelerated. I did an Italian tune-up and the "cloud" returned to a normal amount of smoke when accelerating. So far I have put about 200mi. on it. I fixed a lot of other small problems, vacuum pump,tachometer intermitancy, seat switches, etc, etc. I tried purge two separate times. There were records in the trunk that showed an engine rebuild about 60,000 ago and a xmission rebuild about 90,000 ago, but the car had been sitting for a while as it was very dirty outside. I didn't get to talk to the PO as I bought it from a broker who has treated me well in the past. I bought my 300D from him. The theory of the pump being taken apart seems logical. I have a spare injector to modify, and if I read the book correctly I would have to add a shim to increase pop off pressure. Is this correct? This method seems to be the simplest way to determine if no.1 is off time.


Lee
__________________
'83 300D 283,000 mi.
'88 Jaguar XJ40 132,000 mi.(sold)
'88 Olds 88 190,000 mi.(given to grandson)
'81 300SD 313,000 mi. (given to granddaughter)
Maintained by Me and my offspring.
ESCHEW OBFUSCATION
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  #43  
Old 06-08-2005, 12:02 PM
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Lee, injection pumps are usually marked with anti-tamper lacquer (mine is bright yellow) where the adjustment is made (just below where the injection lines connect). If this lacquer is disturbed on valve to #1 cylinder, you should strongly suspect this alteration is related to your problem. If the lacquer is intact there may still be something wrong, but it unlikely the calibration has been screwed up. The #1 cylinder is by far the most likely to be messed with, because a well meaning but misinformed mechanic may have moved the setting while trying to remove the valve and spring to set the IP timing via the drip method.
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  #44  
Old 06-08-2005, 01:35 PM
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This is a unscientific but cheap way of going. Yes to increase pop pressure you would add a shim or shims to increase pressure on spring. Good you have the manuals I wish I had a set. Great also that Pete Burton mentioned the anti tamper laquer as well. Would not hurt to have a look with a magnifyeing glass to detect a break in it as well. Uncertain of the results if padding an injector but if improvement occurs to some extent it may indicate you are at least on the right path. Especially when you loosen nut and rpms do not climb as much. That would even be the easiest way to get the amount of shims right as the rpn drop from cylinder to cylinder should be about the same. Hopefully you will have that much range.So maybe it is not that crude a method afterall. Before installing that injector I would want to watch and see that the available pump output pressure to pop the injector had not been exceeded. You may be able to turn the #1 injector line around, mount the injector and examine it to verify you still have output by cranking the pump. Otherwise sounds like you did pretty well with your purchase. Recent milage related rebuild and transmission done being two of the potentially heavier expenses. Also it was too bad they damaged that crank when rebuilding but sounds like no real permanent damage. The rod bolt caught the oil passage probably creating the damage. It was an indication that whoever rebuilt that engine is capable of other things as do not know anyone that would insert a rod without protection on the bolts. Or to be fair perhaps his hoses were just far too short.

Last edited by barry123400; 06-08-2005 at 01:43 PM.
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  #45  
Old 06-08-2005, 04:43 PM
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That yellow lacquer is on the nuts that hold the top plates on the pump, right? All 5 of minr look like they have been loosened or at least the paint is not continuous on any of them and the no.1 doesn't appear to have but a little speck left. I say that because my eyesight doesn't seem to be as good as it once was. In fact I ask my grandkids to look at things for me. But the diagnosis is still up in the air because all look like they have been moved still no.1 looks like it had been removed and the others possibly not. I think I will try a shim in the injector first Life goes on.


Lee

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'83 300D 283,000 mi.
'88 Jaguar XJ40 132,000 mi.(sold)
'88 Olds 88 190,000 mi.(given to grandson)
'81 300SD 313,000 mi. (given to granddaughter)
Maintained by Me and my offspring.
ESCHEW OBFUSCATION
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