Is diesel grade oil necessary? - Page 3 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

oldsinner111 · #31 06-19-2009, 11:58 AM

I've used diesel grade in all my gas engines.It just makes sense in todays hot running engines.My Dad taught me that after seeing his Mercury with 390 4 barrell get 340,000 miles and still have good compression numbers.He used Chevron RPM Delo.

123Guy · #32 06-19-2009, 12:18 PM

I bought Elvira new, right off the showroom floor at the Dallas MB dealership, in the fall of '84. I had her serviced at the dealership while in warranty and they always used Quaker State 30W - I realize that doesn't work well in the winter in cold climates, but it works well here. So for 25 years and 225K miles, it's been 30W (or occasionally 20W50 if it's on sale) and OEM filters every 3K miles.

#33 06-19-2009, 01:02 PM

Wow! Who drug this thread in from the back lot?

I only read the first few posts and when I saw that crazy LarryBible had responded I had to look at the date.

There is more recent information about oil that is very important for diesel drivers and drivers of older non roller cam follower engines to be aware of.

In recent years since roller cam followers became universally accepted, an important zinc additive has been dropped from standard oils. This a sacrificial metal necessary for cam and lifter life.

Most of the diesel engines discussed in this forum should have this additive in the oil. The diesel oils have it. Standard premium oils regardless of you favorite brewer not!

Stay with Rotella, Delo, Delvac or the like in your cherished oil motor.

compress ignite · #34 06-19-2009, 04:16 PM

Is the "Street Name" for the Zinc additive.
I believe you can acquire it in the additive form.

Cr from Texas · #35 06-19-2009, 04:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 123Guy

I bought Elvira new, right off the showroom floor at the Dallas MB dealership, in the fall of '84. I had her serviced at the dealership while in warranty and they always used Quaker State 30W - I realize that doesn't work well in the winter in cold climates, but it works well here. So for 25 years and 225K miles, it's been 30W (or occasionally 20W50 if it's on sale) and OEM filters every 3K miles.

Bought mine off the showroom floor at Stephenson MB in Dallas in 1983. I still have the MB list of approved oils that came with the car. On the list was Castrol GTX 20W50. I always used that oil until about a year ago )changed due to this forum and futher investigation). I don't know when it happened, but the certification of that particular oil changed. In 1983 it had a diesel CD certification. I don't know when it got dropped, but that oil is no longer caries the CD certification. Ticks me off that Castrol made no attempts to keep us informed - I mean, really, do you check everytime you buy the same product to see if the fine print changed? I had an oil leak from the air cleaner housing that I traced to a plugged return line check valve from the oil seperator. Used clean oil and air pressure to clear the check valve, switched to Rotella 14W40 and problem seems to be cured. Further investigation reveals part of the diesel certification is the ability to handle a heavier soot load. Our 617's certainly produce soot and that's what I think plugged my check valve. Now, every time I change oil, I slowly had 1 quart of the new oil through the oil seperator. Don't know if that helps, but it certainly can do no harm as it ends up in the crankcase with the rest of the new oil - just takes a little patience.

snookwhaler · #36 06-19-2009, 04:41 PM

Holy Cow!! This thread is almost 10 years old!

mplafleur · #37 06-19-2009, 05:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LarryBible

Wow! Who drug this thread in from the back lot?

I only read the first few posts and when I saw that crazy LarryBible had responded I had to look at the date.

There is more recent information about oil that is very important for diesel drivers and drivers of older non roller cam follower engines to be aware of.

In recent years since roller cam followers became universally accepted, an important zinc additive has been dropped from standard oils. This a sacrificial metal necessary for cam and lifter life.

Most of the diesel engines discussed in this forum should have this additive in the oil. The diesel oils have it. Standard premium oils regardless of you favorite brewer not!

Stay with Rotella, Delo, Delvac or the like in your cherished oil motor.

Yeah, I brought this thread up. The oil argument never ends.

I saw that Larry had recommended CI-4 rated oils. I was looking at Castrol Synthetic that was on sale today for $4.99 a quart. It's rated CF.

Today I found this info:

CF-4 - Introduced in 1990 for high-speed four-stroke naturally aspirated and turbo engines. Can be used in place of CD and CE.

CF - Introduced in 1994 for off-road, indirect-injected and other diesel engines including those using fuel over 0.5% weight sulfur. Can be used in place of CD.

CI-4 - Introduced in 2002 for high-speed four-stroke engines. Designed to meet 2004 exhaust emission standards implemented in 2002. CI-4 oils are formulated to sustain engine durability where exhaust gas recirculation (EGR) is used and are intended for use with diesel fuels ranging in sulfur content up to 0.5% weight. Can be used in place of CD, CE, CF-4, CG-4 and CH-4.

CJ-4 - Introduced in 2006 for high-speed four-stroke engines. Designed to meet 2007 on-highway exhaust emission standards. CJ-4 oils are compounded for use in all applications with diesel fuels ranging in sulfur content up to 0.05% weight. However, use of these oils with greater than 15ppm sulfur fuel may impact exhaust aftertreatment system durability and/or oil drain intervals. CJ-4 oils are effective at sustaining emission control system durability where particulate filters and other advanced aftertreatment systems are used. CJ-4 oils exceed the performance criteria of CF-4, CG-4, CH-4 and CI-4.

It looks like the -4's were made for vehicles with EGR. I'm not sure if they have ZDDP though.

However, I have a hydraulic OM603 with the EGR disabled and I believe that the CF rating is just fine.

strelnik · #38 06-19-2009, 05:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rickjordan

I have noticed that since I switched to 10w-40 and had the valves adjusted, the engine starts in 25 deg. weather, without being plugged in.

Valve adjustment and frequency of use of engine will aid in starting in winter too. When it's 5 degrees in detroit, if the engine's been run then parked for two-three hours, one standard glow plug cycle will do the trick.

Obviously, it's better to have oil that flows well under super cold conditions and it's always better to use the block heater if possible.

Failing that, the right oil, good glow plugs and the correct valve adjustment are the difference between start and no-start.

After a couple years with Rotella, which I used in the old days with DI larger diesels like Caterpiollar 3208 or 3406, I am switching to a synthetic for the extra viscosity in winter.

My venerable 240D has just under 300,000 km on the clock.

123Guy · #39 06-19-2009, 06:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cr from Texas

Bought mine off the showroom floor at Stephenson MB in Dallas in 1983. I still have the MB list of approved oils that came with the car. On the list was Castrol GTX 20W50. I always used that oil until about a year ago )changed due to this forum and futher investigation). I don't know when it happened, but the certification of that particular oil changed. In 1983 it had a diesel CD certification. I don't know when it got dropped, but that oil is no longer caries the CD certification. Ticks me off that Castrol made no attempts to keep us informed - I mean, really, do you check everytime you buy the same product to see if the fine print changed? I had an oil leak from the air cleaner housing that I traced to a plugged return line check valve from the oil seperator. Used clean oil and air pressure to clear the check valve, switched to Rotella 14W40 and problem seems to be cured. Further investigation reveals part of the diesel certification is the ability to handle a heavier soot load. Our 617's certainly produce soot and that's what I think plugged my check valve. Now, every time I change oil, I slowly had 1 quart of the new oil through the oil seperator. Don't know if that helps, but it certainly can do no harm as it ends up in the crankcase with the rest of the new oil - just takes a little patience.

Charles,
Do you still live in the Dallas area? We also bought my wife's '82 300SD new from Stephenson Mtrs - still have it too, loved the dealership, great people, donuts and coffee when you pulled into the service lane - but the friendly, hometown feel of it went away when Park Place bought it and started selling jeeps next door and Lexus up the road.

#40 06-19-2009, 07:50 PM

ZDDP is not the only reason for using a Universal grade oil. These oils have added detergents for soot dispersal. Gas engine oil choices are more forgiving, saving for the ZDDP issue. Diesel engine oil choices on the other hand are quite simple. Don't even DREAM of using anything besides Delo, Delvac, Rotella or an equivalent in your favorite brand.

Without the detergents, too much ZDDP will cause a sludging problem.

Cr from Texas · #41 06-19-2009, 09:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 123Guy

Charles,
Do you still live in the Dallas area? We also bought my wife's '82 300SD new from Stephenson Mtrs - still have it too, loved the dealership, great people, donuts and coffee when you pulled into the service lane - but the friendly, hometown feel of it went away when Park Place bought it and started selling jeeps next door and Lexus up the road.

PM sent

mplafleur · #42 06-19-2009, 09:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LarryBible

ZDDP is not the only reason for using a Universal grade oil. These oils have added detergents for soot dispersal. Gas engine oil choices are more forgiving, saving for the ZDDP issue. Diesel engine oil choices on the other hand are quite simple. Don't even DREAM of using anything besides Delo, Delvac, Rotella or an equivalent in your favorite brand.

Without the detergents, too much ZDDP will cause a sludging problem.

All C type oils have soot dispersals, but looking at the different diesel rated oil specs, it looks like the levels vary, by way of the amount of sulfur allowed.

Regarding ZDDP

From http://www.carbibles.com/engineoil_bible.html

Quote:

Phosphorus (a component of ZDDP - Zinc Dialkyl-Dithio-Phosphate) is the key component for valve train protection in an engine and 1600ppm (parts per million) used to be the standard for phosphorus in engine oil. In 1996 the EPA forced that to be dropped to 800ppm and then more recently (2004?) to 400ppm - a quarter of the original spec. Valvetrains and their components are not especially cheap to replace and this drop in phosphorus content has been a problem for many engines (especially those with flat-tappet type cams). So why was the level dropped? Money. Next to lead, it's the second most destructive substance to shove through a catalytic converter. The US government mandated a 150,000 mile liftime on catalytic converters and the quickest way to do that was to drop phosphorous levels and bugger the valvetrain problem. Literally.
In the US, Mobil 1 originally came out with the 0W40 as a 'European Formula' as it was always above 1000 ppm. This initially got them out of the 1996 800ppm jam and knowledgeable consumers sought it out for obvious reasons. Their 15W50 has also maintained a very high level of phosphorus and all of the extended life Mobil synthetics now have at least 1000ppm. How do they get away with this? They're not classified as energy/fuel conserving oils and thus do not interfere with the precious government CAFE (corporate average fuel economy) ratings. (See my section on the EPA and fuel economy in the Fuel and Engine Bible for more info on this). This also means that they don't get the coveted ratings of other oils but they do protect your valvetrain. The same rule of thumb is true for racing oils like Royal Purple - because they're not classified as energy / fuel conserving, it would seem they still contain good quantities of ZDDP.

Shawn T. W. · #43 06-19-2009, 09:28 PM

Ha, did you read those price they were complaing about back then?

If we only had known, and stock piled diesel and motor oil . . .

#44 06-20-2009, 03:07 PM

Yes the Universal grades have been losing more and more ZDDP as the emissions crap continues. That said though, there is still plenty of the stuff for the MB diesels because they do not have a flat tappet cam like an old Chevy. They have a sliding follower as it's called. There is more area and less pressure thus requiring less than the old Chevy.

mplafleur · #45 06-20-2009, 04:47 PM

Larry,

Haven't seen you here in a couple of years. Do have the forum set up to alert you when an oil thread is active?

Hope things are well.

Change it hot and change it often.

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