thoughts on a non-diesel non-MB subject - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

d.delano · #1 04-11-2005, 12:29 PM

I have been watching the GM saga for a while now. I'd like some thoughts on GM engineering, quality, etc from youz guyz since people here seem to have more sophisticated sensibilities when it comes to cars.
I'd love to love GM, but I can't. GM is a source of national pride for a lot of Americans. It's too bad they dropped the ball like 35 years ago. I've owned 'em so I can knock 'em. The quality of the materials they use to build their cars is crap. The logic of the engineering they put into their cars is flawed. Their presentation is boring. The way they put stuff together quite simply lacks finesse. Don't they care about what they're doing? GM has the most comprehensive engineering and manufacturing resources in the entire world and what do they do with it?
I as an American am sick of being embarrassed by GM. My mother always told me anything worth doing was worth doing well. Why can't GM get its act together? They act like they're trying, but it's a halfass effort IMHO.
They could start by getting rid of Saturn. What a lame brand. All the trekkies and computer nerds are buying VWs now anyway; there's no need for it.

boneheaddoctor · #2 04-11-2005, 01:07 PM

Its no different than any other manufacturer........Ford, Chrysler.......etc....

I would say others are far worse.......GM isn't perfect but I trust their vehicle far more than Ford or Chrysler....and can substantiate reasons too.

Problem is Bean counters who try to maximise profit to give to the Boards of director and the CEO etc....in over-generous bonuses and benifits regardless of how the companies fare....

Saturn is a far better car than most out there now......it is very quick for its displacement class and with wider tires really is a very good handling car....

better than Hondas are....I can speak from experience. AND they are far more reliable than the averange newer Benze is.

d.delano · #3 04-11-2005, 01:30 PM

I drove a 96 Civic EX and owned a 96 Saturn SL2 and I do believe the double wishbone front and multilink rear suspension from the Honda to have been far, far superior. The engine, VTEC, was also much much better. Fit and finish was better too. Dang- the whole car was better! Saturns just blow. Truly yawnworthy, so I'll have to agree to disagree.
It's refreshing to see someone who will defend GM over Ford. GM's mantra in the boardroom has always been 'we are not in the business of making cars, we're in the business of making money'. Now GM wants its market share back. So we're seeing a 'reformed' GM with 'new' products(pushrod engines). 'Fanaticism consists of redoubling your efforts when you have forgotten your aim.' Anyone read the Wall Street Journal's interview with Bob Lutz recently? He is so out of touch with the market it's unbelieveable. He reports that diesels have no future and that the fuel cell is the automotive energy source of tomorrow(it will be perpetually '10 years away' just so they can say they're doing something about the energy crisis. What a pig-headed dinosaur.) Goodnight, GM.
I hope Ford takes a lesson from them and does everything it can to distance itself from GM because GM is a sinking ship. Can't say I will be sad to see them go, other than the residual effect on the American economy they shouldn't allow the door to hit them on the way out.

Pete Burton · #4 04-11-2005, 02:02 PM

Have to agree with you that GM is mostly crap, although I know a few pretty smart engineers who have late model, high end GM and really like them. Can't blame the engineers for most of what they make though. They are being asked by management to make cheap, and considering what their labor costs are, they are doing what they are asked. When they make higher end stuff and quality is demanded more by the market, they do better. 35 years ago is a long time.

I have a GM and I really like it. It's a 1980 K10 pickup I bought for $300, and after I did some basic brake work, it's been very reliable. $13 for a rebuilt caliper, $9 pads, $7 new rear cylinders. It had what looked like an original starter, that gave lots of warning that it was giving out. When it finally went, I wasn't surprised. $44 for a Delco-remy rebuild and 30 min later, I'm good for another 20 years. Rust is becoming a problem, but it's easy and cheap to fix. But they don't make anything like it anymore, and I'm afraid they never will

RayG · #5 04-11-2005, 02:10 PM

The last one, an '87 S10, I bought used with only 5000 miles on the odo. It really showed the bean count effect that BHD mentions. All 4 shocks leaked oil by the time the truck had 7000 miles on it and the truck failed its first annual state inspection. The alternator and water pump both died before 15,000 miles. The plug wires had to be replaced soon afterward. The engine began making pre-ignition noises by 55,000 miles. I could not do much about it by playing with the timing. It turns out that they used a plastic/composite timing gear, which had worn down to point where it jumped a tooth! Overall, GM really left me with a bad impression. How could they build a car with so many parts that were obviousy from the bottom of the barrel?

On the positive side, other than the timing gear problem, the engine ran fine. The tranny never bothered me and the body is still in great shape. My niece still drives it. I guess the accountants can't put their hands into everything.

I know 1988 was long ago, but I still don't want to buy another GM product. I do currently own both a Ford and a Chrysler vehicle, so I have nothing against American cars in general. In fact, from purely economic standpoint, at least for those of us in America, owning a domestic car is the way to go. The older the car is, the more sense a domestic car makes. These German auto parts are way too expensive. MB's are fun to drive and tinker with, though.

boneheaddoctor · #6 04-11-2005, 02:31 PM

I don't know what your problem with the 1996 Saturn SL2 was.....mine is pretty damn quick .....and handles with a slight amount of oversteer....not the atypical FWD understeer....It runs like its on rails......and goes exactly where I point it when i point it there...and the factory leather seats are the most comfortible I have sat in....with excellant support.

Now it does have 205/45-16 parada spec2 tires on custom rims....AND still gets me 42 MPG on the highway when mountains are not involved.

And has been a fairly reliable car....

Hatterasguy · #7 04-11-2005, 02:57 PM

My moms 1996 Olds Ciera is an ok car, thats about it. It drives half way decent but it just did not compete with my old Camry. GM however does have some nice new cars on the market, the Pontiac version of the G6 has a crapy interior but in Saturn trim it is rather nice. Saturn are the only GM cars I would consider, even if the engines have weak rings and burn a lot of oil. The old Vettes were crap, but the new C6's are rather nice, they have really bumped fit and finish up since the 80's and 90's.

Eric Eliel · #8 04-11-2005, 03:09 PM

GM has some real problems right now. $1,500 right off the top from every new car sold goes to fund their employees retirement fund. The current models are way out of date style wise. They have no new interesting models. By July of 2004, they were completely retooled for the 2005 models. Guess what? They are still having 2004 model year incentives to rid themselves of excess inventory. Ford, Chrysler and Nissan are so far ahead of GM style wise its pathetic. They closed Olds for a reason, too many brands chasing an decreasing number of sales.

Honda's are so much better built than Saturn. Check JD Power for recent quality reports.

Check recent GM debt rating, just one step above junk.

You read it hear first: Within two years GM will not be able to survive in its current configuration. It has to change.

Whats good: GM is making money on Hummer and their trucks. I also think the Onstar program is getting them more customers. Saab is still questionable.

Plus my 7 yo daughter had a crush on Lutz's grandson, his daughter lives near me.

boneheaddoctor · #9 04-11-2005, 03:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eric Eliel

GM has some real problems right now. $1,500 right off the top from every new car sold goes to fund their employees retirement fund. The current models are way out of date style wise. They have no new interesting models. By July of 2004, they were completely retooled for the 2005 models. Guess what? They are still having 2004 model year incentives to rid themselves of excess inventory. Ford, Chrysler and Nissan are so far ahead of GM style wise its pathetic. They closed Olds for a reason, too many brands chasing an decreasing number of sales.

Honda's are so much better built than Saturn. Check JD Power for recent quality reports.

Check recent GM debt rating, just one step above junk.

You read it hear first: Within two years GM will not be able to survive in its current configuration. It has to change.

Whats good: GM is making money on Hummer and their trucks. I also think the Onstar program is getting them more customers. Saab is still questionable.

Plus my 7 yo daughter had a crush on Lutz's grandson, his daughter lives near me.

The new civics are overweight pieces of bloated junk in my mind.....I much preffer my Saturn....Hondas aren't without their problems however....

Well if the Big corporations weren't throwing so much of their money at do nothing fat cats they would have far more money to take care of their obligations to people who worked for decades for them.

Hatterasguy · #10 04-11-2005, 03:32 PM

Saab's are nice, they have a new model that is a Subaru with Saab badges stuck on it. The problem with truck sales is that they will take a sharp dive if gas prices continue to rise. I can't see people running out and buying H3's if gas is over $3.

boneheaddoctor · #11 04-11-2005, 03:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hatterasguy

Saab's are nice, they have a new model that is a Subaru with Saab badges stuck on it. The problem with truck sales is that they will take a sharp dive if gas prices continue to rise. I can't see people running out and buying H3's if gas is over $3.

I can't see the soccer moms and the people who have to compensate for something buy have a bigger truck than the next guy hopping in a Kia Rio no matter how high they get.

Same people who yak all day long on their cell phones and have $100+ cell bills every month......

d.delano · #12 04-11-2005, 04:29 PM

Yeah but what are the benefits of pushrod engines when all the applause centers around overhead cams? What's up with this 1950s technology GM foists upon us? How efficient are pushrod engines? What's the logic behind the FWD Cadillac? What is GM smoking?
Lutz is a putz, just look at his opinion of diesels. He doesn't care about the future since he's 70 some years old! Dude flies to work in fighter jet for chrissake!
For the record the Saturn burned lots of oil after 60k, not my fault as I was brought up to believe that oil+water= the life of an engine and my service history reflected that. Oh, yeah- the rattles and squeaks and the ultra low budget interior and layout were abysmal in that car. I felt like an a*shole just driving it. No, it did not hold a candle to my friends' Honda Civic EX. Throwing good money down the toilet kinda scars you...

PC Dave · #13 04-11-2005, 05:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by d.delano

Yeah but what are the benefits of pushrod engines when all the applause centers around overhead cams? What's up with this 1950s technology GM foists upon us? How efficient are pushrod engines? What's the logic behind the FWD Cadillac? What is GM smoking?

Corvette seems to do just fine with pushrods, 400 hp from 6.0 liters matches up well with the 360 or so MB gets from the AMG 5.5 normally aspirated V8; the Z06 will do 500 hp. If you'd rather go OHC, the Caddy Northstar's had them for 12 or 13 years, take your choice. There's only one FWD Cadillac on a go-forward basis, the DTS. The other model lines are all RWD, and are pretty interesting, imo. I haven't owned a domestic car in 20 years, but I'd consider a CTS/V or STS if I were in the market for a new car.

Habanero · #14 04-11-2005, 05:06 PM

I can't add too much to the passenger car debate, as both of my pre-MB passenger cars were beat to crap before I got them. But when I was shopping for a heavy-duty pickup, I drove all the big three before deciding on the Chevy. I really wanted a Cummins and really wanted to fall in love with the Dodge, but I just couldn't do it. The fit and finish in the cab just didn't seem to mesh with a 35,000 dollar truck (not that I care all that much about fit and finish in a work truck, but still). The Ford was okay, but I didn't think it handled all that well on the open road and since 99.5% of my miles are highway miles, I didn't think I wanted to compromise on driveability to favor off-road strength. Then the 6.0L's started puking injectors and there was no way I was going with a Ford. Then there was the Chevy. The engine is strong (although it is was developed by Isuzu so may not be applicable to this discussion), the ride is great, and the interior finish was good. Eventually I happened upon just the one I was looking for (except for color, but you can't win them all) and I drove it home. I would purchase the same truck in a heartbeat if I had it to do over again.

d.delano · #15 04-11-2005, 05:28 PM

Well I've had 3 GM cars and that's enough for me. Perhaps I just didn't have the right models. But is it OK for GM to make some decent models, and slack off on all the rest? A plastic composite timing gear? Put down the crackpipe GM.
The pushrod design is 1950s tech. It may make plenty of power, but at what hit to fuel economy? If the pushrod is so great, why does no one else but GM use it? One of my GM cars was a '89 Camaro Z28 w/ 305 V8 TPI. Ford Mustangs with the same displacement would embarrass me. T-roof leaked. Body panels never did fit each other. Changing the spark plugs on that thing was next to impossible. In retrospect, it was crap. It was the best out of the 3. Finally blew a head gasket as I was preparing to go to school in Europe so I conveniently dumped it@ 96k.
I wonder what would happen if a manufacturer were to eschew all of the electronica and just go with a pure mechanical design built out of the sturdiest, most robust materials, like our 123s. I also wonder what would be possible if they actually marketed it as a simple car that the user could service themselves.

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