How do you fix IP timing off a tooth?
 

If misery loves company, JimmyL and I could be best buddies. If I were from TX like him, I would write a country song about my car. If you want background, you can search my threads going back to last year. But here's where I am:
I found a very knowledgeable MB Diesel indy who did a valve job, after I pulled my head. I had some burned exhaust valves (mainly #3 & #4), needed guides, etc., and he found the #1 prechamber outlet blown to smithereens, from teh #1 injector that was leaking. He cleaned up all four injectors and put a new nozzle in #1 and balanced all four within whatever the pressure tolerance is supposed to be, half a bar or whatever.
He recommended installing a new chain as long as I was in there. So I rolled in the chain and lost track of the cam timing, but I know how to fix that with a dial indicator once I get the IP timing straight.
Before doing the cam timing, I wanted to set the IP timing because it is a new chain. So I've got the chain held together with the master link and rocker arms off and I've applied tension to the chain tensioner rail by "screwing in" a slit-open (lengthwise) piece of heater hose into the chain tensioner hole, so that it acts like a spring against the rail. I've rolled the engine over a few times and then I checked timing with the drip method. It looks like it's at 4.5 or 5 degrees BTDC, which is too close to the 18 degrees (what people say is equivalent to one tooth) to be coincidence. I rolled in the chain all by myself with a jury-rigged bungee system to keep tension on the old chain and my arm to keep tension on the new chain. One or both of these tensions was probably not maintained consistently, and I may have even let the engine lapse backward a bit here or there. It was kind of jerky-like, the engine as well as the chain over the sprockets.
Here's my questions:
A) If, as I suspect, the chain has an extra link between the crank and IP, won't I have to get it to jump back the extra tooth, either on the crank sprocket or the IP sprocket? Whenever a thread gets to the conclusion that IP timing is off a tooth, folks immediately start talking about pulling the IP and re-orienting the spline connection to bring the pump back into time. Maybe one can get the pump back in time by doing that, but it seems to me that you would be leaving too much chain between the crank and the IP, therefore having less chain on the slack side. Does the chain tensioner have enough compliance to absorb the extra tension?
B) If I'm right and I need to get the proper number of teeth between the crank and IP, how can I shift the chain one tooth on either the crank or IP sprocket? I have the lower oil pan off and I can see one row of the chain where it goes under the crank sprocket, but it looks like there is little if any clearance there. Is there enough to shift the chain one tooth? If not, do I have to drop the crank or something?
C) I had two master links, and I believe one of the four plates dropped down into the chain area. It wasn't in the pan when I dropped it, and I fished for hours, from above and below, with a coat hanger/vacuum hose/magnet as well as magnetic tape, but I've come up empty-handed. The engine has been turned over by hand at least 5 or 6 complete revolutions without any hangups. Should I just put the pan and cam cover back on when I get the timing straightened out, and not worry about the chain plate?
Thanks for any advice you can provide.

strict order of proceedure needed here.engine timing must be correct first.then set the injection pump.otherwise you will be chasing your tail so to speak.it is normal for there to be some chain slack between the pump and crank.the tensioners will take care of it

I'm not fully sure of what your saying, but these criteria have to be on the money....#1 crank shaft relative to cam (and you can be 180 degrees off if not careful) #2 crankshaft/cam relative to IP. If you have the first two correct with chain on, you must bring the third (IP) in correct position for the crank and cam........then lastly, tighten up on the tensioner.

For cam and crank, turn crank to TDC, cam should have a TDC mark indicating alignment with TDC crank.

On my 603 IP, there is a method for finding TDC within the IP, so if I got the crank and cam aligned, and then turn the crank to the required 15 ATDC, I then only need to install the IP and it will be correctly set, and in my 603's case 15 degrees ATDC, or whatever the specs call for in your case.

"it is normal for there to be some chain slack between the pump and crank."

Since this is on the working side of this arrangement... the loads being the IP and the Cam.... ( pushing the valve springs down ) and the Crank doing the pulling..... I don't see how that can be an accurate statement.... Something would have to be interfering with it for it not to be a straight line and tight ( given the efficiency of a chain )....

Leathermang, I would agree that it wouldn't be normal to have slack between crank and IP; it is the tension side of the chain drive. However, it is apparently possible, by turning backward or not maintaining tension during roll-in of new chain, to get an extra link of chain between crank and IP. The chain would still stay tight and in a straight line when the crank is working and pulling the pump, but the pump would be lagging by ~18 degrees (right?) from where it was in relation to the crank. One could perhaps get the pump timing right with the spline drive and still have the extra link between crank and IP. But if the chain is as tight as possible between the IP and cam (which I intend to make it) there would be one link less between the cam and crank on the slack side, pushing the tensioner back in farther.
If so, I need to know: Isn't that a problem?
So my questions remain unanswered.
To whomever can answer my questions, thank you in advance.

I know my name isn't Leathermang, but the chain should never be that tight by it's self, it is why there is a tensioner!

keep in mind that the injection pump timer is not fixed.it can rotate quite a few degrees.as well you can have some slack in a chain and stiil be less than a tooth off. ;)

The amount of chain links has no bearing, but with too many links, the chain tensioner couldn't take up the slack. There should not be a links worth of distance, or slack, between cam, IP, and crank, only between crank and cam with tensioner between.

i agree if you have 1 link or more of slack you must adjust accordingly but some slack in the chain is inevitable in an engine with any mileage and an old chain

This is correct, and why there is an adjuster to fine tune-in the IP.

I suppose it could, or maybe compensate for a tooth off, but the adjuster would be all the way to it's max, and your injection tubes would have to bend for that kind of extreme adjustment!

That's when it's time for a new chain!

I do not think you can get a extra kink between the crank and the IP drive . The chain is pulled by the crank from the IP drive unless I am looking at things wrong..It sounds like you need to pull your IP set it to its index mark set the crank to its proper position and reinstall IP. Go to the site below if you do not have the info on setting up IP timing.

http://skinnerbox.steaky.org/

If you do have a links worth of slack between the crank and IP, the slack is in the wrong place, it should be between the crank and cam, where the tensioner is located, at least it is on my 603!

"However, it is apparently possible, by turning backward or not maintaining tension during roll-in of new chain, to get an extra link of chain between crank and IP"

That is the scenario which I have been suggesting needed to be checked when I heard he had turned it backwards.... In the manual it says to maintain tension while rolling in the new chain...... if there were not some way which something like gravity could mess up something if you don't maintain tension I am sure they would not have said that...

And while it would seem that either it would be off so much that the internal IP adjustments would not be able to compensate... and show up in trying to time the IP .... I still think that WHATEVER can be messed up by not maintaining tension in the proper direction needs to be found.....

Ya, he did mention things turned the other way, and very likely could put slack where it doesn't belong. I just didn't think one could not feed it in any other way than you described, or follow book procedure.

One more thought I have, if he's got a tight chain when he tries to link up both ends (tensioner out) there would be slack either between cam and IP, (after it comes out of the rail guide) or IP and crank! If that's the case you would be in big trouble as soon as it fired off, assuming you compensated the IP.....so it could fire. ...........................Good Luck, hope I added help, not confusuion........BB ;)

Whoa! Major "Duh" on my part!
 

BusyBenz, you nor anyone else could add to the confusion I bring upon myself. And now I have confused yuz guys with my failure to think through the simple kinematics properly. My brain gets so tired with this car and the other 90% of stresses going on, and I fail to think straight.
I am so sorry for you all trying to help when I must have been confusing you extremely.
I have been out Mom's Day shopping with the kids. And as is often the case, as soon as I get away from the problem at hand, a light bulb goes off.
While driving in the Peugeot, I realized that if I am off a tooth, the way to fix it is with the spline drive. Although I know the chain pulls tight between crank & IP when running, I was thinking that somehow I would have added one tooth of length between there. Duh! That makes no sense, because it is a fixed distance from crank to IP drive, and so the sprockets rotate and you will always have the same length of chain there. So you pull the IP and shift the spline drive and it should go back to approximately where it was, then you fine tune it with the IP mounting.
Or maybe I can put it back where it was just with the IP mounting adjustment?
Sorry everyone.
I still would like to know about the master link plate that I think may be in there somewhere. Could it be between the chain and the forward wall of the block at the bottom? Is there a danger that it will get caught up in the chain, if the engine turns over by hand OK? Can I just forget about it?

Thanks.
Ted.
Over...

TedG,

You want to find the extra cam link end and not when you are going 65MPH like happened to me. But in my case it was a piece of an allen wrench.

It broke the chain in 3 places, broke the cam and towers, striped the teeth on the crankshaft chain sprocket and ruined the rings and bearings from loss of oil pressure.

I had to tow it home from Ohio to eastern PA and overhaul the engine. It was a '64 190D engine.

P E H