IP timing---"one drop per second"
 

I've gone through the process of setting the crankshaft at 25 deg. BTDC, making sure I am on #1 compression stroke, #1 valves are pointing up in V position, remove all the injector lines, remove spring & valve from #1 injector on pump, install drip tool, wire the throttle full open, remove the vacuum line to the canister on the back of the IP, (don't know what that thing is called), loosen 3 nuts & 1 bolt on IP, pump the IP pump. I get full flow, no bubbles and the flow lasts several seconds and starts to drip but it finally slows down and stops. Never getting the constant "one drop per second". I move the IP forward and backwards in all possible positions and not achieving the "one drop per second".

Am I suppose to be looking for a constant one drop per second? Does it sit there and drop one at a time for a long period of time? Do I pump more than one time? I get a full flow pumping just once.

Thanks,

JFC

your close enough just tweak the crank one way or the other.a hairs width :)

vent the fuel secondary fuel filter
 

you need to mention which car you are working on.
i never tried it but i suppose if you didnt open up the fuel line at the top of the filter it may not let the fuel flow correcty while setting the ip timming.
also mention what all you have repaired and why you are setting the ip timming.
larry perkins
72 old cars

I recall moving the IP in towards the block advances timing, out retards.

If you aren't finding any location which caused fuel to stop flowing when pumping, then something is seriously wrong. Bring the crank around again twice to the right position and check again after setting the IP with one of your old injector pipes. (Back to original IP timing.) Make sure the timing chain stays tight-no back sliding. Check with the pump as you approach (and pass) 25 degrees on the crank. I think Pindelski is right on this- better to remove the fan and shroud so you can then easily crank from the top.

Drip is to hard- find the position which JUST stops the flow.

Did you just replace the timing chain or do something which might mess up your IP timing badly?

Bruce McCreary
(2) '85 300Ds, 83 300CD

I had a lot of trouble "seeing" the 1 drop per second when the throttle was full open. It worked well for me at the idle position. Maybe it's just me, and I know what the instructions read, but that was my experience. Maybe this would be easier with 2 people. one underneath on the crank and a second on the primer pump watching for the transition to drip.

Its a tricky procedure the first time you do it...
 

Please make sure you read the instructions carefully.
The Black Haynes manual describes it very well , so use that if you think you are missing information.
I have done it some 12 to 20 times and I still make a mistake once in a while. That drop will come if you are set up correctly.
When you finally get it scribe a match mark on the pump and the engine to show the correct position, in case you ever pull the pump. Also dont loosen the pump too much or when you bolt it down after you set the timing it may change position.
I remember once I was so intent on getting it 100% right, I did it 5 or 6 more times using the reference scribe mark I made to "fine tune" it. I wanted that engine set dead perfect.

I worry that the pump method provides a decreasing pressure... which may not allow you enough time to move the IP to the proper place...
When TCane did mine we used a fuel container placed above the IP so that the pressure was constant and we had plenty of time..... mine was pretty hard to move... he did not remove the steel tubes... so some brute force was necessary....

IP timing
 

Thanks to all who have responded.

This is my first experience owning and working on a diesel. The car is an MB 77 300D. This is an engine swap. I do have a friend, mechanic but not diesel menhanic helping me. I am using the Haynes Manual which is a pretty good manual. I have followed the instructions to the T from the manual and I couldn't get the one drop per second thing so we got it as close as possible and buttoned things up, started the engine. We used ether mist over the intake manifold opening and kept doing that a little at a time until the engine smoothed out (instructions from the archives). It didn't smoke. The throttle is very slow to respond. We drove it and went from 0 to 60 in about a minute. Just no power.

Now I really need help.............

When we took the engine out, we failed to mark the vacuum lines that go to the IP, under the dash, to the ignition, etc. I don't have them hooked up. I was reading the thread posted by Phantom showing the vacuum diagrams but there was none for a 77 300D. Reading the archives someone said it didn't matter if they were disconnected. Don't know if that is making this engine powerless or what. I'm not able to shut off the engine with the key.

When we were adjusting the valves, my son mentioned as he was turning the engine over, that it felt as if there was a lot of compression. So I'm assuming the rings and valves are in good shape. The engine we installed has 212K on it. We did install new rod and main bearings.

So we decided to go back to the IP timing again and see if we could get the "one drop per second" done up right. And therefore I will ask again:

When I find the spot where I am getting good full flow, no air, and it begins to slow to dripping, am I suppose to be looking for a constant one drop per second? Does it sit there and drop one drop per second at a time for a long period of time? And if that is the case I should be right on time. Right?

I know the timing is critical as is an all engines. Therefore, I appreciate all the help with this project. I also desperately need help with the vacuum lines. I've raised several hoods on 77's--81's looking for one that is hooked up right to no avail.

Thanks again,

JFC

I need to try this.
Does anyone besides MB sell this drip tool?

Danny

Ebay has them all the time.........

James, the dripping is roughly one per second, but fuel temp and surface and size at tube outlet will come into play. The transition from full flow to dripping to stopped happened to me within a VERY short amount of rotation - like 1 degree. It's so short that it's real easy to go by it, but once you hit it you know you are right there. Sort of like riding a bike :)

What your trying to find is the period just before the lift plunger closes off the plunger housing to start squeezing the fuel towards the injectors.

Did you take out the element spring and plunger under the pump top element
before refitting the element ?

I would continue turning the engine towards TDC( And past, if necessary.) untill the flow stops (While someone pumps the lift pump for you.)

The test is supposed to be done with a special column of diesel to get constant head pressure.

What you can do instead (if you have a sedan, at least) is fill the fuel tank and get the back of the car up on ramps or jackstands. Then you won't have to pump by hand.

Ted

ip timming
 

from my observation of the ip drip method i think the mb engineers wanted you to use the column of oil in the fuel filter because its mount is fixed and the drip tube is a fixed height when turned toward the block.all you are doing is setting the gap of the power piston just before it rises to its cylinder bore which starts the high pressure cycle and allows no more fuel to enter.if you use a higher fuel level than the top of the oil filter to set the one drop per sec then you timming will be set fast as the higher fuel level will push more fuel thru and you will have to speed up the pump setting to get the one per sec. lower the fuel level and your timming will be slow. just adding my opinion as i observed the total system.
larry perkins
72 old cars

"from my observation of the ip drip method i think the mb engineers wanted you to use the column of oil in the fuel filter"

But doesn't the filter feed from the top ? Does it say anything about opening up the other side so that vacuum is not keeping that fuel from flowing to the IP as its constant source ? Seems that would not provide enough pressure... it would be more like syphoning.... but with too much constriction behind it... ?

Someone needs to try just putting a fuel source a couple of feet above the IP and setting it... then see if it runs OK...

Are u sure?
 

The test is supposed to be done with a special column of diesel to get constant head pressure.

What you can do instead (if you have a sedan, at least) is fill the fuel tank and get the back of the car up on ramps or jackstands. Then you won't have to pump by hand.

In all respect, are you sure?

There is a special shop tool for drip timing diesel pumps Mercedes text books expect you to use. It is a 12 volt/110volt pump and reservoir with connecting hoses. Along with text to help you use it properly.

For enquiring minds..... :)

_____________________________________________________

No...No, and Heck no !!! NEVER use ''ether/easy start, et al '' to aid starting a diesel with pre-combustion chambers.
Or a diesel with induction air heating grid. ( Cummins 5.9.)

Why ? Because the ether 'explodes' instantly at it's ignition temperature,
which is well before TDC or the injection time of the diesel injector ....

What ether will do is break things..........
..including the upper circumference of the cylinder liners.

Also at risk are the pre-chamber and the diffusor balls.
To say nothing of the hammering the piston rings and
crank bearings are taking.

I've seen it snap timing chains !!!!

If you have been doing this with seemingly no damage...
let me assure you, your engine did suffer damage and
will show up many miles from now and it will seem unrelated. :eek:


_____________________________________________________________

Is it just me?
 

or does this read just like Sady's last defect, with the IP 180 out? Check the world's record thread for more info

While I haven't found it in the FSM I remember reading about the "column" from Stu Ritter almost a decade ago. If I recall correctly it was like a big graduated cylinder and you might have even watched the rate of fuel drop.

In my experience with the timing procedure (using the drip tool) the transition from a fast flow to nothing at all is very fast. I think the "one drop per second" refers not to a specific flow rate but that region between continuous flow and residual drops.

I also remember reading about an alternative method where you dip paper towel into the delivery valve body and watch for the fuel to come out, but I've never tried it.

In my experience with the drip tube method, operating the hand pump and turning the crank at the same time was difficult, and it was hard to discern if the flow at the drip tube was slowing because of the crank angle or because the pressure in the pump body had fallen. Jacking the rear of the car solved this problem well.

Ted

I've done that...but only works if you are turning the motor from topside as you watch.........would not work well as a two man team.

I've had pretty much the same experience, but I never tried jacking the rear of the car - worth a try, IMHO. Also, a siphon from a plastic bottle full of diesel could be attached and the bottle raised/lowered with a string to vary the pressure. Roughly 33" of diesel is = 1psi pressure

Another option might be a "Tach N Tune" It's like setting the timing on a gas burner. It has a crystal pick up on the #1 injection line that senses the injection pulse. You mark the dampner at TDC and use a timing light. An LCD display shows the degrees of advance. There are other names for it I can't think of right now, but it is comonly used on marine diesels that use Bosch or Stanadyne pumps. Also used to time John Deere engines and they have their own tool, but it does the same thing and can be used on any PLN engine.

If you have a Deere dealer or repair center near you they may be able to do it. It's a dead on accurate way of pump timing. International used them on the 6.9, 7.3 DT360, DT366, DTA366 engines. Their part number for the tool is ZTSE4141. One of their older dealers may still have one laying around too.

http://www.designtechnologyinc.com/techtime.html
you can get the idea of how it works here ...

There's one, teeny weeny iddy biddy problem with this.......
The injection pulse/flash will not show the timing at 24 BTDC.

You need information on timing for each particular diesel engine and the amount of ignition lag/pulse/flash, to read off the angle on the pulley.

In other words...find an engine like yours that is timed properly and then see at what degree the timing device reads at idle. You will find that most show 2 to 15 degrees BTDC......After you know what it sets at, duplicate it on your engine.

Snap On Tools used to sell a 'Luminosity Probe' that screwed into the glow plug fitting and triggered your regular Zenon lamp timing gun. :cool:

BTW....Injection crack pressure will have a bearing on the timing too .... :(


______

Has anyone ever tried the injection pump timing method that uses:
Mercedes Benz "factory Timing Tool" #W 601 589 05 21 00 ?

Danny

The only problem I see with that is getting a conversion factor for the Benz, and that can't be too hard, can it?

Anyone??

not me. I personally own exactly 0 special tools purchased from MB.

drip per second.
 

I had the same question last week, when i was setting my injection timing on a 1981 300D. I removed the fuel line at the hand pump and installed a auxillary fuel source. I hung a one pound coffee can with a hose running out of the bottom for a gravity feed. A mecanic told me this. He said that the primer pump is only to prime not to hold constant fuel flow. It worked. I got one drop per second. I let it drop this way for 15 drops and locked my injection pump down. It fired the first hit. I hope this helps.

Well...
The way I am asking about is using the factory tool I mentioned earlier.
It a special tool with a plunger that's inserted by removing a bolt on the IP unit.
You set the crank at 15 deg ATDC - chain stretch. then you move the pump until the plunger on the tool clicks in and locks the timing in place. Then you tighten down the IP and that's supposed to set timing perfectly.

Anyone ever heard of this before?

Thanks for the coffee can idea I may just use that.

Danny

I've seen pictures and description of it in the FSM, but it failed to induce the urge to open up my wallet.

I screwed around with the drip and "welling up" methods of timing the IP for weeks before I subscribed to Pindelski's site and then bought the Mercedes Benz "factory Timing Tool" #W 601 589 05 21 00 - bargain of the century, IMHO. Presto, perfect timing, with timing chain stretch factored in. Best running 617 I have ever had (of 3). This is not a paid political announcement, just a description of what finally did the trick for me. I thought I could just pull the IP straight out, replace the bad gasket and then slide it back in - but no joy until I reset it to the correct datum using the MB tool - I love the unambiguous way it snaps into the pump's detent. When I reinstalled the IP it ran perfectly - no smoke. I tweaked the idle with a new rack damper bolt and she's good to go. Now if I can get the chassis sorted out...

Cool, how much did you pay and where did you buy it?

Special order from the MB dealer - full retail is like $35 for the tool. Seriously, the bargain of the century (my time is worth at least $35/month!). Knockoffs are on Ebay all the time for something like $25. The drip timing technique apparently works for some folks, but for me it was like friggin voodoo - way too many variables. When this tool clicks into place, there is absolutely no doubt where the pump it set, just dial the motor timing in to match and bolt the IP into place.

OK..that the weird knob on a shaft type thing....I've seen tose listed on ebay...

I correct myself, more like $70 on ebay (why pay twice dealer price?):
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=42337&item=3866419170&rd=1&ssPageName=WD1V

Thats so high becasue it includes a delivery valve socket too....but yes thats the one I have seen for about $25 alone on ebay.

This sold recently on eBay: http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=43989&item=4546834274&rd=1

FYI, the tool is slightly different for pre-82 model IP's. Got one on ebay for $30 bucks. MB dealer wanted $117.00. :eek: Plus tax! :eek: :eek:
You did get the bargain of the century.
Anyone have the instructions on how these work? Is it explained on the Pindelski site? I might have to subscribe to that site after all.... :confused:

Yes, it's explained on Pindelski's site.

Danny

James, your post No. 8 looks like the ticket to me. Do you have the governor hooked up and operating? Is it a vacuum or mechanical governor? For safety's sake, you should be able to shut off the engine from outside the engine compartment if you're going to drive it down the road - this uses different vacuum than a vacuum operated governor. So.... yes, you should try to get the vacuum lines connected. Also make sure the engine can breathe - i.e. crank vent.

As far as the timing goes, remember it's not a race car and it's not supposed to be rocket science. One drop per second is what you'll get if you use exactly the same setup as the person who wrote 'one drop per second'. You'll have enough fuel in the secondary filter for maybe two tries before you need to pump it up. You should see a gush then a steady run then a dramatic transistion to a drip. Set it at that transition or maybe a half degree past, then watch your performance and fuel mileage. Tweak if you really, really want to as the exact spot will be where your car likes it, and depends on what shape the injection pump, injectors and timing chain are in.

Injection pump oil
 

Where does the injection pump get it's oil from? Does it get oil from the engine oil circuit?
I'm asking because when you use the factory timing tool you loose oil and I want to know if you have to manually relace the oil.

Danny