Completely Bumed Out
 

My engine is that I thought was a 617.952, in infact a 617.912. So the turbo that is currently in it had to have been added. All of the papers I have on the car indicate it is an 85', however this is not possible as the 617.912 was only made until 81'.

My big concern is how well the engine will hold up over time with the added turbo, as I know the two engines are difference until today when the MB dealer got the engine number off of the engine. I also found out today that it is Grey market, imported into the US, but unknown of when.

I have had the car for 7 years and didnt realize there was a difference. I have put about 80,000 miles on it and have never had any troubles with the engine or turbo. I have taken it to the dealer for maintence(valve adjustment today) and they have never once mentioned that the added turbo will cause any problems. I have had no problems with the engine itself but am not concerned that they may arise.

I am not sure what to do exactly. Do I keep the turbo on or do I remove it? This is really depressing as I have been lied to somewhere along the line. Should I try to sell it and get another, although it would be like giving up a child to me, or do I keep it? So many questions are running through my head right now, I dont know what to think. I am gonna sleep on it and see what tommorow brings :(

This was verified by looking at the # on the block or??

This is quite interesting.

I'm not sure that we know of anybody who added a turbo to an original 617 that was designed for use without one.

You are probably aware that the 617.952 is designed to accept the turbo and has many modifications that allow it to dissipate all the added heat. The most noteworthy of these is an oil cooled piston.

However, understand that M/B will design such an engine to handle maximum continuous power for an extended period of time. Most of us with 617 engines would have no issue with running them at maximum power up a mountain for 15 minutes, if necessary. The engine is designed to take this abuse.

Your engine is not. So, you can use the turbo for short acceleration bursts to get onto a highway but, I would urge you not do do any dragstrip runs with it. Additionally, when climbing a decent grade, DO NOT run at 70 mph. Slow the vehicle to 45 mph so that you don't run heavy boost for an extended period of time. A boost gauge in view of the driver would be strongly encouraged in this setup.

The engine won't show any signs of excessive wear or any problems whatsoever, until you melt a piston. Then, the game is over. :(

Since you are fond of the vehicle, I would advise you to keep it and, with your knowledge of the situation and the proper precautions, it will provide excellent service for many years into the future.

I'd start planning to remove the turbo since you love the car and want to keep it. Brian has given you very useful tips on how to operate the car to avoid killing it with the turbo, but what are the chances that you'd remember to do all those things each time you're in a driving situation requiring their application? Also, what if someone borrows your car, like a family member and does exactly what Brian said they shouldn't do? Too many risks involved. Just plan to eliminate that turbo. Sorry about the frustration. I can understand how you feel.

Given that you have driven it so long and so many miles without melting it down... I suggest you just keep on keeping on....
It may be that the someone that added it was smart enough to run very little boost... which would account for your longivity.
We don't have any hills around here.... so don't have to worry about that... LOL
When we throw a Central Texas Get Together will plan on your bringing your car for a conversation piece...

There are worse things that can happen to a 617.912 than having a turbo added to it. :(
And who knows, maybe it was rebuilt when the turbo was added, and has the oil cooled pistons. :)
If you have driven it for as many years as you have, I would just keep up with the maintenance and see what happens. 617.952's are easy enough to come across if the worst happens. :D

Maybe somebody can confirm this, but I've heard that all Euro cars were non-turbos, even until 1985, and that turbos were only available in the US. If that is the case, your car may be a 1985 but would still have the 617.912 engine. Somebody would have added the turbo, which also means it might not be too difficult to convert it back to a non-turbo. You would probably only need the manifolds, air cleaner, and exhaust header pipe.

On the other hand, you have driven the car 80,000 miles with evidently no trouble. So maybe you just keep driving it like you always do and see what happens. If the person who installed the turbo knew anything, maybe he limited the boost so that it will not harm the engine. And the grey market wouldn't bother me any, as I don't think there are that many differences between the US and Euro versions, especially if it has ben "Americanized" for the US market. Just sounds like somebody did a little hot-rodding to your car before you got it.

Thanks for the replies. After sleeping on it, there is no way I can get rid of the Red Fox.

As for keeping the turbo in or not I am not sure of yet. I do know that on my IP I have no ALDA. I have read posts about you guys adjusting it, and dont have the ALDA on my IP. Without the ALDA, wouldnt the extra fuel not be delivered to the injectors to give me more power?

Right now my brother is driving it and puts about 40 highway and 20 in town miles on it a day. He knows not to floor it and to take it easy when going up hills. I had driven it the same to go back and forth to shcool for about 2 years. Also my dad used it for about 6 months to go back and forth to Houston, 2-3 times a week(about 250 miles for those not in Tx).

I will have to take it out of commission for a bit, but I am going to try to see how the heck they added the turbo to it in the first place. It just baffles me. I am not sure when I will have time to do this, but will let you know how it goes.

post pix! sounds like a nice car

Are you serious? If you have driven the car for 7 years and 80,000 miles you have nothing to worry about. They add turbos to non turbo engines all the time and unless you are racing or hauling heavy loads it has practically no effect on engine life. If you baby the car and maintain it by the book, the engine is in no danger and you don't need to change anything.

So stop worrying and enjoy your Benz, you have nothing to worry about.

Without an ALDA to provide additional fuel, the turbo won't put out more than about 5-6 psi. Unfortunately, the additional manifold pressure won't do anything for more horsepower without the fuel.

You may very well have a turbo that isn't doing anything.

How about taking it for a 0-60 time and posting the result? This would tell us whether the turbo is doing anything or not.

Brian, perhaps someone had the Max fuel screw adjusted to enable full power at max boost.
At WOT, this would give some smoke until the turbo spooled up and provided some boost, but otherwise it would behave just like a OM617 with an ALDA.

BHD recently turned up the full load screw on the W116. Heavy black smoke under most conditions.

I would presume that this possibility exists, but, if someone attempted it, there would be evidence of other issues, especially the smoke.

Besides, look at the difficulty we all had in finding the proper screw on the back of a 617 pump. How likely is it that someone pulled the pump to attempt blind adjustments to this screw??

Mbenz,

You already got 80,000 miles out of the car which is more then some people get from a new car. Leave well enough alone. If the engine goes bad, you can always put a OEM turbo engine in it.

If it ain't broke, don't try to fix it.

P E H

I agree. See post #3.

Leave it as is but do post 0-60 times as I wonder how this is affecting performance. Have you ever driven a 300D that had a turbo which belonged there? If so, how did they compare?

Thanks
David

You may be able to confirm, or at least see what your car came equipped with. This site will give you engine and tranny serial numbers...just input your vin number.

http://www.mbclub.ru/mb/vin/?lng=eng

Ok so I have been out of town this weekend but just got back from running the Benz. On a country road, with no incline at all, I was able to get 0-60 in about 20 seconds or so. I am not sure if the turbo is in fact working or not.

I also checked the VIN on the motor with the russian site, and they match. So it doesnt have the turbo engine it it for sure.

turboed?
 

i dont know how to check the numbers of the block etc. my inclination is that if you have put 80,000 trouble free miles on it and if the turbo is present and on the job that you do have a turbo block.

i have looked at bare short blocks of the turbo and non turbo motors and i own both and have had both rebuilt. there are a number of differences that can be visually checked that will reveal a turbo from a non turbo block.

1. the non turbo pulleys look a lot like 240 d pulleys. there is a single belt to the alternator instead of a double on the turbo motor. also the turbo motor has a larger harmonic damper and a longer nose on the front of the crank to take the larger harmonic balancer. the larger hb will not fit onto the non turbo crank. i suggest looking at your motor along side a known us spec turbo motor and a 240 motor and make the above visual comparisons. i believe that the turbo motor has a much ribbed aluminum oil pan and the non turbo pan is plain aluminum. the small pan at the front sump is very similar and is pressed steel in all of the motors. there are probably other visual clues that i have f0rgotten or never knew. i think that there are differences in the head too but cant remember specifics.

2. you also could pull the small oil pan and look up into the motor for the oil squirters. i am not positive that you can see them but i suspect that if you could look at a bare block for the visual clues youcould find them inside your motor with a small mirror if necessary.

from your last post you have already assumed the correct attitude which is not to panic until you get more info. i am thinking that you probably have either a turbo block or a non functioning turbo, either way probably not a problem.

I believe I would dissent from most of the opinions offered here on whether to keep the turbo. As it is, your turbo is dead weight. You may have added some modest intake, but without the concomitant fuel delivery (adjusted via the ALDA), you are getting only superficial horsepower gains, if any. Furthermore, it's possible that the added weight of the turbo will only further diminish performance. If it's not meant to be turbocharged, why gild the lily? ;)

So are the blocks the same NA vs. turbo, and they just have different bolt on parts?

If the engine has lasted this long, maybe it was rebuilt inside and out to be a turbo engine? If it has the longer crank and harmonic balancer and other things that t walgamuth mentioned, you maybe in good shape.

IMO, if it has the turbo crank/balancer(which would require a proper tear down), I would get the alda parts make everything working per design intent. You might get some additional performance and fuel economy. But you might also push the engine over the edge and melt a piston like the others did. Then install a proper turbo motor. If your car is already a "cut and paste," why not go for broke? :) Again, just my opinion.

Isnt 300dturbo's 60 time more like 14-15 seconds?

If I do a mashed to the floor kickdown my SD reaches 60 on flat ground in under 13 seconds...so I would think a 300D would be a bit better than that since its lighter....but 20 seconds sounds like no turbo boost or very very little is happening.

European models came with both non-turbo and turbodiesels up to 1985. This is well documented, and I have one - my '84 300TD wagon is a euro-model WITH the OM617.952 engine. And I have seen many overseas with and without turbos on their diesels. My buddy in Florida has an '83 300D and his is NA. Soemtimes you see the later model NA diesels Euro-versions on Ebay too... Decoding your VIN should validate your car if it indeed has the .612 instead of the .652 engine. If someone added a turbo, well - take Brian's advise - don't beat on it, you should be okay.... :o

Well I havent ever beat it up, it is mainly just in town driving, so no drag strips for me.

The VIN on it is WDB1231301A222249. If someone can tell me if it came with the .612 or the .652 that would be great.

Well... notice on the Russian site - your car's "Approximate Year" reads "1979". According to their database, your car is either a 1979 or a 1980 model - hence it left the production line with the OM617.912 engine. That Russian site's approximate year is really the production year (not the model year) therefore your car may be a 1980 300D model - which was non-turbo back in '80 (I had a 1980 300D Non-Aspirated). Check your plate at the driver-side door jamb - the production date is stamped there (on the "Certification Tag" at the left door pillar... AND/OR check behind the seatbelts - the seatbelt dates (look at the belt where it mounts on the floor - it's stamped in ink so they may be a little faded) is another telltale sign on when your car was assembled.... another way is - check behind each of your gauges in the instrument cluster (if it has not been swapped out yet) and you will see the factory date stamps of month/year all over there...

Carson356 just ran the VIN also on the Mercedes EPC database and your car was assembled with the "617912 12 161823" engine - therefore your car originally had the non-turbo engine. Check your engine block - maybe the PO took out the old engine and put in a .952 engine.... (the engine number is right below/next to the IP unit). The EPC is 100% correct - it is MB's database electronic catalog -they use it for obtaining vehicle information (like we just did) for purpose of parts and service. I can send you the copy of the EPC data card for your car - just PM me.

Well the number behind the IP, which I am told is the engine number is:

R 617 011 09 04

There is also a number at the bottom but I cant make it out(kinda tired) but there is the number 84 at the end, maybe the year of the engine??

This is a puzzle that I am piecing together, kinda fun, kinda a pain, hopefully worth it.


Correction, I was looking in the wrong place.

The engine number is 617 912 12 161 823, the orininal 300D engine, not equiped for the turbo.

Now that I know the turbo prob, isnt doing anything, what do I need to do to take it off correctly. I know there is an oil line going from the oil filter housing to the turbo, I guess to give it oil to keep it lubercated. Do I remove it, the air filter bracket, intake manifold, exhaust manifold and EGR valve? Or am I just better leaving it on and not worrying about since it most likely will not cause harm?

Why not just leave it the way it is... don't try to fix something that isn't broken - and yes, you MAY do more harm if you start this project... You say it runs fine, you don't beat on it, and you have not had problems with the turbo, etc... you just answered your questions - like most others suggested: "Enjoy the car..." Now my other question, is the 300D a '79 '80 or what year?? Check those places I stated in my earlier post... IMO, it's always fun (or nerve-wracking) to authenticate/validate a W123's past history... I guess that's why I'm a W123 addict! :D

From the door seal, and what I could gather from behind the seat belts, it is a 1980 300D.

I will keep the turbo in, even know it doesnt do much except take up space.

I thank all who have pitched in on this topic and hope to have some pics of the ordeal up soon.

If it comes down to rebuilding the engine, I will rebuild without a turbo. As the same time I am upset that it isnt a turbo, I am relieved that I know what it really is.

This is my first car, paid $1500 when I was 17. I will never get rid of the Fox, ever. It is a part of me, and I will enjoy this car until it is no longer able to fix, or I die. The only thing left to do is take off the Turbo Diesel lettering on the trunk and replace with only Diesel.

Since a properly running turbocharged 617 will produces 0-60 times around 14 seconds, the 20 second time would be dead on for a 617 n/a engine.

The turbo engine has approx. 50% more hp than the n/a engine and your elapsed times correlate very well with this number.

So, at the present time, you have a turbocharged engine that is not making more than about 80 hp. You cannot damage it in this condition. You would need to add an ALDA and determine any other associated hardware required to get the boost level up. Then you could begin to worry about excessive heat in the combustion chamber. ;)

If the engine still has the original Injection pump, will the addition of an ALDA be possible or useful? Doesn't this earlier IP also have a different (lower) fuel delivery capability? Think there are still a few unanswered questions as far as utilizing the currently dormant turbo. What say you engine experts?

Wow, you always learn something new in here!!!
 

Very interesting discussion. I was going to say just leave it in, as it's a PITA to get out, but also it's another thing that robs hp from the engine. Adds some back pressure, etc.

If you do anything, put in a 617.95X. I just happen to have one with IP and Oil filter canister (with IP to ease installation, no need to set pump timing) Did a compression test on it and all cylinders were above 20 bar cold. This engine started right up until I started pulling pieces off of it.


www.benzbonz.biz

Marty

On a 617 turbo...you can see the oil squirters by removing the lower pan... They are little aluminium things which look very small and intricate sitting there inside the engine. If you have those, you have no worries.

If I were you I would pull the pan (can't hurt to replace a gasket anywho) and see what you have in there....ya just never know :)

thoughts
 

i am with brandon. the turbo on the side of the motor is just too odd. i hate to be mr obvious again but are you sure you have a turbo there?