50 MPG city and 60 MPG highway diesel? Bring it on!!
 

So the yet to be released E320 CDI with the new 224HP / 376ft-lbs of torque 3.2L DOHC 24V V6 engine is supposed to get just over 40mpg in straight highway cruising and about 30 mpg in city-only driving and about 35 mpg in combined city and highway driving (all consumer reports estimates). We all know now that the modern diesels are clean and refined, and can deliver as much or even more power than equivalent V6 gasoline engines while running 30 - 40% more efficiently. Well, all that is old news now. Bring on the new news!

What I want to see done is a Mercedes C-Class or E-Class or even the smaller Volkswagens with a small turbocharged and intercooled diesel engine and with as much technology tacked onto the engine to make it more efficient while remaining just an internal combustion engine. I mean stuff like variable valve timing on exhaust and intake valves, DOHC, 4 valves per cylinder, efficient transmission with an effective overdrive gear, etc. A four cylinder engine will do that won't be scary fast but will have enough low end torque for merging around in city driving. Basically what I want to see done is a diesel engine that will not produce the fastest car, but will have neat mileage ratings from EPA: 50mpg/60mpg city/highway ratings. Add on the particulate filter which will reduce soot and NOx emissions with no significant increase in the price of manufacturing the engines and the hybrid car can be sent to the grave early! :D The Honda Civic HX has a 1.7 liter gasoline engine that can easily get 45 mpg on the highway. For a gasoline engine that's great. Can you imagine what a small, efficient modern diesel engine made more for efficiency than power can achieve in terms of mpg? At an efficiency rate that's 30% better than that of the Honda 1.7 liter engine, that would come out to nearly 59 mpg. This is definitely possible!!

I know a lot of people who won't mind purchasing a compact car that gets such high mileage without a $3,000 price premium and without having to worry about if the hybrid technology will hold up over time. Unfortunately according to automakers such people are very few to justify the development of such a car. Add on the fact that we live in a horsepower-crazy world and it definitely won't happen. For now, that previledge will be for the Europeans only.

Realistially the Toyota Prius (pronounced piece-of...) gets identical mileage to the VW Jetta Diesel. But the Jetta's engine is tough and has been out for years. Thats what convinced my math teacher on getting the diesel.

Yes, a hybrid with a diesel engine would kick the crap out of a Prius.

This was discussed elsewhere on the forum and the general issue with hybrid diesel is that the diesel engine never gets up to an effecient operating temperature in the hybrid situation because it is constantly turning on and off.

As far as "technology" goes...VW experimentally turbocharged one of their VW Rabbit Diesels (the 1.6L) back in the late 70's and were easily breaking the 50mpg mark. I think the figures were something like mid 60's for highway and high 50's for city. Averaged out to about 60+/- mpg. They of course never sold this however the "technology" and concept has been around for ages since then. Why they never realised a TDI until later, who knows. Maybe they wanted to do more testing.
All I know was, it was super effecient as compared to almost any car in that day. I am sure it helps that the VW Rabbit is a rather light automobile. But still, very interesting information.

My source, chiltons diesel guide 1979 (or some year around there....one of the first few years that they released the 300SD (w116). That book had extremely high praise of that automobile. :) Cannot imagine why. :)

Seems like old news. My VW TDI gets nearly 50 in city/highway driving ('00 ALH model), with better economy and power after a recently chipped ECU. The new pumpe deuse injection models get somewhat less.

The Euro VW Lupo TDI gets between 70 and 80 mpg, but one U.S. reviewer criticized its quirky tranny: http://www.usatoday.com/money/consumer/autos/mareview/mauto497.htm

The "Chiltons Guide to Diesel cars and trucks" is a great little book. (1983 is what mine says.) It's the book that "converted" me to diesel. Any diesel lover should have it in their library.

I remember reading about a car that Wilcap of CA built years ago that got 80 mpg +. I think it was a Mazda body with a small Perkins diesel engine mated to it. Computers and super expensive parts(TDI inj. pump @ $3000 plus etc.) aren't required to get great mileage.

That depends on the design. Diesels are fundamentally more efficient.

:rolleyes: Someone will always find things wrong with any car that is ever produced. He doesn't like the tranny because it is geared for fuel economy. Boo-hoo. The car is designed to be as fuel efficient as possible, so there are comprimises that are going to be made, as with any other vehicle. I could also gripe that all of my luggage doesn't fit in the new Ferrari, or that I can't drive my big-ass Excursion more than 150 miles before taking out a loan at the gas station. Does that make either of these vehicles pieces of shyte? I think not. Some cars are just designed for a particular purpose, and people just have to realise that and deal with it.
I personally would love to buy a Lupo if they offered them here in the States. Not only for the fuel economy, but for the sheer fact that the Lupo looks like what the Rabbit SHOULD have evolved into (i.e. small, lightweight, easily tossable car), not the big and heavy (3,000+ lbs.) Golf that exists now.

Well your TDI still produces some black smoke upon heavy acceleration, pollutes much more than a hybrid, is slower than, say, the Prius and is expensive. Not to say you're car is bad, but my proposal is for the creation of a very cheap, very efficient diesel engine with all the current technologies that make today's diesel engines as refined as their gasoline counterparts. If the car can be made to be at least as fast as a smiliar hybrid while delivery similar or better fuel economy and low emissions and also be nicely priced without the $3,000 or so premium that plagues hybrids, then the industry will begin to think twice about all the hybrid noise.

The prius, faster than a TDI? The TDI produces much better torque and about what, 20 more horsepower? I'm not sure of either ones' curb weights though.

According to Car and Driver's road test results, the Prius does 0-60 in 11.2 seconds, while the TDI does it in 11.3 seconds. It is a small difference that's probably negligible and could have been caused by a variety of factors, so I suppose we can consider the cars equally in that regard. I am aware that a 0-60 time isn't the all in all measure of acceleration, but it is the most universally used.

From what I understand, the early VW diesels were of notably poor quality in terms of longevity and problems. I have seen them referenced (along with early diesel Olds) as among the reasons diesel passenger cars got a bad name in this country. I don't know much beyond that. Would be interesting to research.

I have a 1981 Jetta and love it, but what you say here is very true. Timing belts, Head gaskets, Heads, engine mounts, etc. can be a problem, but If one is willing to work at it these cars can be kept running. Fuel mileage from the high 30's to as high as 55 mpg is possible. An old Benz is a much more durable car though.

Is your 81 jetta a TDI or naturally aspirated.

diesel hyb
 

i would think that the issue of the diesel not warming up could be fairly easily solved. i think there must be other reasons for the mfgrs not doing the diesel hybrid. i think that i read that mb is working on one.

diesels i wish were offered
 

while on the subject of wish lists. i wish that mercedes offered a car similar in concept to the venerable 123 240d. a four cylinder in a c class or the little coupe with the six speed. normally aspirated. crank windows, manual seats, manual heat/ ac controls, etc. basic transportation. there are a lot of us 240 lovers out there who would buy one. a turbo as an option will be ok too for you speed demons out there.

VW LUPO SPORT TDI "enthusiasts"
 

Click on link for photos (right wheel steering) and interesting specs on the LUPO. We can buy their Golf, Jetta, etc, but the Lupo and Polo models aren't available to us. Why not? (Although I heard something about getting around the rule would be to remove the engine over "there" and ship the engine and body over here to be reassembled, in between registering it as a "kit" car.) Anyone know any more about this? Harry.

Naturally aspirated. It is an earlier engine than the car(circa '79) 1500cc, rebuilt and stripped down to the bare essentials. No air, PS, PB or vacuum pump. Head studs instead of stretch bolts to hold the head on, etc.

Sounds neat ... but let's keep in mind this is America. As much as I love this country, we don't tend to think that way as a nation. Most Americans would view a car like that as being a "step backwards" or a total dinosaur. Most people want trinkets, power, flash and convenience ... and heaven forbid they should have to do any thinking to make the car go from point A to B. I think the spirit of the older Mercedes diesels like the 240D and the 123 300D has kind of passed in this country. I think in the past, the "less powerful" cars offered by MB were made to appeal to people who wanted something simpler or more efficient. The "less powerful" MBs offered now are made to appeal not to that crowd, but to people who want the "image" but not the price. Thus, I don't think they could sell simplicity and economy in the smaller Benzes.

The R-Class concept SUV at one of the shows had a V-8 CDI electric hybrid. I hope it gets to the showroom soon. Don't feel guilty about a little diesel soot. Helps counteract global warning. There was a study recently that says the decrease in particulate emissions may be as responsible as CO2 increases for global warming. We know from volcanos and forest fires over history that particulates cool the earth. So puff those diesels. Nothing like a good whiff of diesel soot to make my day!

Now that's a diesel person ! It beats that rotten egg smell any day ! :D

From what I have seen there is a need in this country for a no-frills style economy car that is built with quality. For all the attention the SUV, V8 driving crowd gets there is an awful lot of Prius' on the road. They are selling them as fast as they can build them. I doubt they are discounting them any either. The simplest answer is to import the Lupo. All the technology you want and economy to make the hybrids look silly. VW already sells all the TDI's it can without any advertising. Instead of upmarketing like they have been doing with TDI Passats and Touregs, the Lupo would cut the economy car market off at the knees. Its awful hard to argue with 60-70mpg. RT

240s
 

the 240d modern that i describe is almost certainly built in germany. i think that they just think that they can make so much more sending us only the big ticket items that that is all they want to do.

I disagree. I think americans want full size, nice cars that get good mileage. I think the Prius is a cult car. To small for most americans and families. American's like the sedans and trucks. Now I do agree that a good economy car has been a niche that has been ignored. The welfare state of Ford and GM cannot be maintained on economy cars. I do think the Charger and GTO are insane in this environment.

I hope Chrysler imports more mainstream Euro Benzes into this county. I hope the Sprinter van is only the beginning.

i'm not sure when VW first made diesels in the states, but i know my dad had an '82 rabbit that lasted 13 years, and when he got rid of it, it was only because so many regular maintenance repairs/replacements had piled up. he was kinda rough on that car, too.

The first VW Wabbit diesels were mid-1977 model year. The early cars were made in Germany and could be identified by the round headlights. Not too long after that, they opened a plant in Pennsylvania where they made the square eye version for a couple years. Seems like it was in the early 80s when thet pulled the plug on the PA plant.

Well, I wish we had more diesel cars here. Heck, Chrysler is offering the new 300C with a diesel engine over in Europe, with the MB 3.0L V-6 engine. The 300C is a nice full-sized car, I don't care what critics say, I like the styling, although I think the front bumper needs to be a little more pronounced with a little less of that long grille. I think it would sell well in today's gas price climate in the States.
-Joe

benz dreams
 

one of the things db is doing is building chryslers on benz chassis such as the crossfire and the 300, being built on the slk and the s class chassis. i am hoping that the next thing they will do is offer the mb diesel in the magnum with a six speed... i would buy that for sure. oh yeah they are offering a four cyl diesel turbo int he jeep liberty for 06.

i rented a 300 over the christmas holiday when we flew out to vegas and toured around to the grand canyon and such. it had the small us built v6, drove like a benz and got over 30 mpg. i filled it three times...each time over 30 and driving 75-80 out there. i was astounded. i would not buy one like that because of quality issues with the us built engine and tranny, but it was a sweet ride. it had the euro style dash (benz), cloth interior. comfy, fast enough (a little doggy but once wound up would cruize easily at 80).

give me the magnum 320cdi six speed!!!

I would guess the references I had heard were pointed at the late 70s models. The gas crisis led to a diesel-car boom, from what I understand ... many car manufacturers started offering diesels (or importing them to the states for the first time). I think VW offered a diesel in 77/78 ... I think the early 80s models were probably the next round. I've never been a fan of VW, particularly, so I honestly don't know the history. Maybe someone else around here has a better tab on it.

diesels
 

yes that's about right. i will guess 76 or 77 on the first rabbit diesel. they were known to be peppy and could get nearly 50 mpg with the stick. often they had head problems at around 100,000 miles. some went a lot more than that before problems but i am guessing that people didnt give them proper care. they had a lot of mechanical similarities to the gas engine cars as in block and lower end. head s were different and they used bosch mechanical pumps pretty much like the benz.

gm got in the act about this time too and built the v6 diesel put in mid sized cars such as the nova types. they offered little isuzu diesels in chevettes, ditto inthe small pickups (luv). dodge too, little mitsu diesel in the small ram 50. big dodges came with mitsu diesels, 6 cyl. scouts came with nissan diesels, and of course the gm 5.7 v8. ford did the 6.9 starting around 78 or so maybe 79. the us diesels had ridiculously cheap injection pumps that were mounted in the distributor hole and featured plastic internals that failed around 70,ooo miles. at this time mb was selling about 80% diesels here, lots of 240S AND 300s. thats why there are so many of them for us diesel geeks to play with... they never wore out.

oh yeah, there were peugot diesels too. they drove very nice but werent nearly the car a mb is.

others too i am sure i only listed half to 2/3 of them.

My earth shaking idea is to use some of the energy lost to heat in braking to instead power an electric supercharger. This would eliminate the starting and stopping of the engine problem but would mimic the essential advantage of the hybrid by capturing some of the forward momentum and using it to add power for the next acceleration. I've got some more ideas on this but I haven't patented them yet. :D :scholar:

Dream on, bucko, dream on... :juggle:

We drove a Grand Caravan out to Hilton Head and while the V-6 was adequate the transmission was terrible. They need to just scrap the Chrysler tranny. Glad I was renting and not owning

I've got a Grumman chev step van w/ a GMC 6.2 diesel. Understand it's supposed to be a lot better than the GMC 5.7. Anybody know? Seems pretty strong and reliable but I haven't put that many miles on it yet.

My dad had a mid 80s Peugeot turbo-diesel. I never worked on it, don't remember the model #, but we drove it to San Diego and back (from OlyWA) and it was one sweet running machine. Not sure why Peugeots quit selling in the U.S. -- must have been poor sales. No idea how it stacks up against Merc. 617 but I imagine it falls short.

I've heard that you need to replace hybrid batteries at around 100K at a cost of some $3 grand. Expensive overhaul...

I'm new to my Merc. turbo, about 6 months, but I've been told by more that one mechanic that turbos fry engine oil, giving it (the oil) less lifespan and effectiveness. Is this true? Turbos I've checked the dipstick on do seem to have dark and dirty oil.

I have never seen a Diesel operated for more than an hour on new oil that wasn't dark. The turbo is just another part to lubricate and dissipate heat. Needs a little larger filter and larger crankcase capacity. Turbo's carry more oil.

If you are leery of simple, reliable turbos on turbo designed engines then you have no hope of accepting hybrids. Most current hybrids get their biggest efficiency gain by recapturing some of the energy from braking(usually dissipated as heat) into electricity which is stored in a battery and used to accelerate. I don't know how efficient this is. I believe some of the hybrid technologies price a warranty that should cover that first battery change into the price. I to am leery of h ybrids but tell that to the prius freaks. There are some good antidoctal tales of prius with over 200K.

Huge gains. The diesel is the ultimate momentum engine. However I think using the model that has been used in gassers will not get you the optimum gain. Regenerative braking is definitely a plus. I would have to get out the combustion cycle equations and curves and remember most of the thermo I forgot.

6.2 gm
 

the 6.2 is a fairly good engine. it used to break out main bearing webs in pickup trucks with the 4.10 rear end but not on 3.73. dont know how that would translate in your grumman. the injection pumps are the weak point after the mb webs and they were junk from the factory. since yours is old it probably has had it changed already. also use only bosch glow plugs as the cheapies may break off and bend a rod. they are fairly reliable overall and get much better mileage than a gas engine specially around town. i used them to tow a 24' wilderness tt and got good results. with the 3.73 towing i used to run with my foot on the floor. they would run 65 all day, more if going downhill. (suburban) not much poop... took a while to get up to 65. at that time i had 5 kids in the nest and required a suburban. now that there is one left i have a dodge with cummins and six speed manual. a much higher quality engine.

the 6.2 is pretty good overall. take care of it and it will give you good service providing it isnt hurt already.

No kidding...eveyone should have the experience of a slow car so that they can appreciate their "faster" one.
I love seeing the brand new SUV gas guzzlers or guy in the E-Class (non-diesel ;)) floating in the left lane doing 8-10mph under the speed limit. Get out of the way so I can pass you with my rattle box! :D

MOst of those were probably modified and not designed for turbo's. Those scare me too. Diesels are high compression engines anyway. When designed well they can take a turbo just fine

Yeah people who refuse to get up to speed to merge onto the highway make me mad to. Usually it is an real old timer or someone who didn't learn to drive in the USA or a first world country. Someone should teach them how to drive before they get a license. I am a firm believer in making it more difficult to get and keep a license. It will never happen though. To powerful of constituents would not allow that to happen

driving
 

ditto on making it harder to get a license. in italy and germany they drive fast but pay attention. most americans come back and say "i would never drive there... they drive so fast!" i say...oh yeah...cool.

need small SUV or Wagon
 

Does anyone have an opinion on the Volkeswagon Passat diesel vehicles? I am getting ready to get rid of a royal PITA Volvo and replace. I need a small SUV or wagon. Any suggestions? This vehicle needs to be used, fuel efficient and around 15k or less.

See www.tdiclub.com. Read the FAQ. Note the late-'90s Passats with the 1.9l engine and 1,000 mile range vs. the recent Passat with the 2.0l PD engine with auto only. Lots there, with message boards devoted to each. Also note the classifieds.