where can I buy R12?????? or who can I get it from??????
 

First off, I understand about R12 and how you need to have blah blah blah from the EPA to get the stuff. But where are some of you guys getting it? and some people are saying its getting "cheaper" now than it was. I can get R134a at work for like $7.50 a can. Of couse my wagon still has R12, and still works well. But I have my 76 280C and I want to fix up the system in it and get it working again, and I would LIKE to get R12 in it, but if I can't get it, I'm gonna have to put R134a in it instead. I don't know about people saying how R134a doesn't work worth beans, I know my dads ford truck has R134a and it gets VERY COLD, but then again, its made for R134a so who knows. If anyone wants to sell me R12, I'd be willing to buy.

Thanks guys.

Try E-Bay

I just converted a 300D last night after replacing its compressor. It blows ice cold, even colder than the R12 system still in my 300CD although it was last charged 2 years ago.

It was very easy to convert! pretty cheap too, almost less total than what the r12 refrigerant will cost you.

That seems like what everyone else isn't saying about R134a, but I don't live in texas, so I think I'll be ok.

THanks

Autozone, $15/can. Of course considering that you have the proper licensing, a 609. So far that is the cheapest that I've heard about. It's worth an extra $30 to stay with the R12. Plus, when switching you have all the flushing to do, etc.

Thanks
David

I was also told about the low price from Autozone, however the local autozones here only sell them in huge containers for $200 each. However, the EPA has approved the following refrigerants as substitutes for R-12:

HFC-134a (R-134a)
FRIGC (FR-12)
FreeZone/RB-276
Ikon-12
Freeze-12

So you can purchase any one of the above and use it instead of R-12 as far as I know. I need to get the A/C in my new 300SD up and running so I guess I'll be purchasing some freeze-12 soon.

R124a Sucks Ass
Nest Friday the good stuff is going back in

autozone sells r-12? where do you all live? i work for autozone and everystore i work at doesnt carry it. they say its too expensive to carry for the amount of people with licenses. the only thing other than 134a that we carry is r-22 and you need a license for that. the only things we carry for r12 vehicles is one hose for filling.maybe it differs from state to state. from what i understand freeze 12 isnt even r12

Indeed, Freeze 12 isn't R-12 however it is a compatible, legal, direct replacement for R-12 and doesn't contain CFCs which contribute to ozone depletion.

Any good AC shop will not touch a car with substitute coolants if you have a problem. It will contmainate their recovery tanks and cost them big bucks. If you have a leak from one of the substuitute/approved coolants, the different components leak out at different rates and then you have no idea what you have in the system. Most folks will be better off in the long run using R12 or R134.

I was skeptical too about Autozone carrying R12 at $15/ can. I assumed that it was something that said "12" on the can like Freeze 12 which will never see the inside of my garage let alone the inside of my AC system.

Len

I'd never recommend mixing refrigerants. However I'd fully recommend flushing out all of your old R12 (whatever is left in the system) and fully recharging with Freeze 12, that way you have one type of refridgerant in the system.

there's no "direct" replacement for R-12, because by law, anyone servicing your system for consideration is required to install special fittings specific to the refridgerant used. Due to other factors such as oil miscibility and hose porosity, the CHEAPEST option for most people will be to keep R12. Now, you can find it on E-bay, and if you look enough you'll find an auction that doesn't require a 609 cert#. Illegal for anyone to sell it that way, but it still happens occasionally.

Another option is to go to a site like http://www.epatest.com and do it legally. You can download the training document for free, then take the online, open book test for only $15 or $20. Plus, you'll learn quite a bit just by reading the information and feel better knowing more about how your system works and confident that you will be working safely, I know I did. Boy, what a great country we live in, with the choices we have! :)

"Direct Replacement" is one of those nonsense terms when used to describe Freeze 12... or any of those other masqueraders....

It applies only in the most narrow and meaningless of definitions in that the Freeze 12 will occupy the internal space where the R12 used to work.

It will not match any of the important parameters for which R12 was designed to be utilized inside your AC system.

We don't have cheap automobiles with cheap AC systems... so being cheap to the point of using the wrong refrigerant is truely penny wise and pound foolish.

Well said...I am hardly an expert on A/C and even I know that.

I've read half of the material there, it's actually semi interesting. And for the $20 to not be hassled when purchasing as much R12 as you need, it's WELL worth it. :D

I took the test today. Piece-o-cake. Finding HCFC-12 may be another issue tho...

I saw a case of 12 sell for around $170 a while back, 14oz cans. Only on ebay. :)

I nkow the Autozone by me has it. It was awhile ago that I asked but I think he said it would have to be ordered as well as me having a 609. Maybe I should take the test and start selling this stuff for $20/can, then after I sell 3 I'd have my license paid for.

Regarding the questions on the test, aren't they more about the environment than servicing an A/C system? I heard that a couple questions are pretty tricky.

Thanks
David

Just curious if anyone has used propane and Isobutane?..

I have seen it used by others and you can make ice cubes ...

let the flaming begin.. but as you do... tell me how in the world you would get the right combination of air and fuel to ignite a system with proane in it?

PS I do not have it in my sytems.

it won't carry oil and your compressor would burn up before all that long as a result.

Not so... the only bad things about propane and isobutane is the flamability and the fact that you have to evacuate and recharge completely if there is a leak. I wouldn't recommend it, but it is a good test refigerant.

http://cathey.dogear.com/cwair.html -- guy who uses it in multiple vehicles...

With my new 609 certificate, I bought three cans of HCFC-12 today at a locally-owned parts chain called A-Line (sells mostly to repair shops). $140!!!

However, I now have really cold a/c both in my 300D and 240D.

Any of you a/c guys heard of a product called "cryo-seal"?

It is banned by the EPA as an automotive refrigerant.

I know... but did you know..
The average female might have almost that much propane in the
propellants of the various products she has in her bathroom.

CONVERSION: R12 to R134(A)
 

Due to smaller post-atomic particle size of R134 versus R12 ,heat transfer
coefficient is less.[R134 wiil carry away less of the passenger compartment
heat as compared to R12]

To maintain the same efficiency,a Parallel Flow Condensor [30% more
efficient than O.E.M.] is necessary.

Even with a P.F.C. a conversion will never equal the vent temperatures
possible with R12 in a O.E. R12 system.

R12...30 Degrees "F" at the vents [without a frozen evaporator]
R134... Maybe 45 Degrees "F" at the vents.

Thank you for explaining all that in such simple terms. In my current search for R12 many techs have tried to convince me to convert to R134a. I tell them that the high pressures of the system will probably send my compressor to the graveyard after two summers of intense use. Also, my system, having been designed for R12, may suffer consequences in parts that I don't even know of.

I tried to charge with R12 today but it didn't even go into the system. Just a little bit did, enough to allow the compressor to engage. Something is blocked in the system thereby preventing the refridgerant from flowing around it. I'll get the system flushed and then try again. It held vacuum steadily for 20 minutes so I know I have no leakages. I ended up using the R12 can (which I had already opened) to top off the system in my Honda Civic.

anyone tryed propane/butane mix instead of R12? It works, it’s cheap, Australians use it.

Tom

I went to Autozone and they say they haven't sold R-12 in years. Guess it's a regional thing.

My guess is that at Autozonie most of the counter personnel are more familiar with lighted mudflaps, NOS stickers and spinning hubcaps than anything involved with the comprehensive repair or maintenance of a 20+ year old European vehicle. :mad:

When I asked about R12 at Advance Auto (even less informed than your average Autozone, if that's possible) one guy says "R12!! that's illegal! that's illegal!" then another guy says "why would you use R12 anyway? R134 works much cooler. Just fill it up and you're good to go!"

I nodded my head saying "thanks for the info guys" and walked out. :D

"I know... but did you know..
The average female might have almost that much propane in the
propellants of the various products she has in her bathroom."


How fast is her bathroom traveling ?
Are those located on the front end of the bathroom with no protection from being released in a spark invested accident ?

Since R12 is not flammable under normal crash circumstances... that is one of the reasons it is used... Ammonia is a perfectly good refrigerant for stationary situations... but is also avoided in moving vehicle situations....

Except for milk delivery trucks.

"anyone tryed propane/butane mix instead of R12? It works, it’s cheap, Australians use it."

That is exactly why we placed them on the other side of the earth from us...
When they blow up the Reds,Grays and Wallobys will again have the peaceful continent to themselves.....

And your point is? :rolleyes:

"Except for milk delivery trucks."

But to be honest in the comparison... aren't those the top mounted units... as compared to having it at the very front of the vehicle to be messed up first in any normal collision ?

:eek: It averages to about $18/14oz can on ebay. I found some NOS AC parts for my SD on there... Dryer was $14, Expansion Device was $22, and Manifold Hose $75. :)

Freeze 12 is perfectly acceptable for use as R-12. I just used it! Got 38 degrees at the vent on an almost 90 degree day with high humidity.

If my R-12 had not leaked all out of my 30lb container, I of course would have used that. :(

You are new here....
We have been discussing this for years.....
You have not read the archives you need to concerning this...
It looks like you have not even read all this thread....
If you had been smart you would have found some R12 on Ebay to install in your system instead of taking the easy but short sighted action you did of installing Freeze 12.
Vent temperature is not the only.... and not even the most important criteria on old Mercedes AC systems.
Since R12 is available and gives cold air... longivity and future service considerations shoot to the top of the criteria list ( for people in the know )....

Saying these R12 wannabe's are just as good as R12 is like saying Anna Konikova is the same as Rosie O'Donnal, they are both women and both have the same parts....and would function as women.....

But which would you preffer R12 (Anna Kornikova) or the other stuff (Rosie O'Donnal) ?

I'll take Rosie O'Donnel (if that's who you mean by "O'Donnal) any day. I kinda like my women thick. LOL. :P Just kidding.

R12 is very expensive compared to R134a or even Freeze-12. For someone who just wants cold air now and probably won't even own their car in two years' time, I'd say go ahead and do what you have to do. One problem I keep seeing on this forum is a group of people who forget that some just buy these cars to use as they expect to get something better. Not everyone wants to keep a car for 10 years. Even at that, a small accident can bring your intended long ownership to an end. As long as people know what their choices are, the final decision is fine... I wouldn't knock anyone for their decisions regarding their car.

"R12 is very expensive compared to "--Braverichard

To be fair you have to consider things like the time the expensive parts of your system will are likely to last with other refrigerants in it...
You have to factor in the fact that finding someone to service your car a year from now may be hard due to limitations in the recycling machines the shop owns...
Remember that our AC systems are designed to leak some at the compressor shaft to keep that main seal lubricated... So one should plan ahead ...without making a complete evacuation necessary... for maintenance of the refrigerant charge...

What I keep seeing is people who forget that what they do to THEIR car is different from advocating that by posting on a forum where many people have little means of assessing the credibility of the poster....

"As long as people know what their choices are, the final decision is fine... I wouldn't knock anyone for their decisions regarding their car."--Braverichard

That is what I am trying to keep in the discussion for OTHER readers.. the other facts that he left out of his advocacy of using Freeze 12.

I get your point. However, it seems to me that the way he presented the procedures leaves the choice of refridgerant up to the individual performing the action on his/her car. Just like he originally started by stating he was going to use R12 but ended up resorting to Freeze 12 due to unavailability. Where I side with you is on the issue that his presentation could easily misguide the ignorant into thinking there are no serious negatives to using Freeze 12 instead of R12 that should be in the system. Perhaps he can just add a line like "using Freeze 12 may limit you from getting service from A/C shops that won't allow that stuff to contaminate their system, however if you do all of your own A/C work then you won't have that issue." Indeed his instructions seem like direct steps to restoring your A/C by traditional means, whereas putting Freeze 12 in an R12 system is anything but traditional.

Problem is too many people reading this thread haven't taken the time to search the archives for the problems of using these "alternative" refridgerants and the correct things to do....Leathermang and Larrybible have extensive posts on the subject....and I consider them to be the two most knowledgible people on the forum in this subject.

Judging from questions asked on A/C the last two weeks alone it would seem noboduy seems to know how to uese the search fuction.

I would think a sticky on AC chatter (as well as all the other common issues) might appropriate. Maybe linking all the worthwhile 'extensive posts' to a sticky might be a start.

i almost bought three 12oz cans of r-12 on ebay yesterday for 6.00 it goes pretty cheap on ebay

R134 conversion
 

My long-lived 16V.needed a lot of AC components replaced. Seemed like the time to convert to R134. compressor condensor etc. System didn't stay charged long. My new mechanic who became my father-in-law is a 34 year certified M-B tech. he identified the problem: AC lines all need to be metal inside the hoses. For not too much money a shop specializing in reman fo forklift hydraulic lines rebuilt the M-B lines with metal tubes inside. Worked like a charm.
Moral of.the story: you can't half-ass conversion from.R12 to R134.