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  #46  
Old 06-24-2005, 01:53 AM
JimmyL's Avatar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by P.E.Haiges
Only one of the AC piks was visable. All the others had a small 'x' in a square.

Any fix for this?

P E H
If you are on dial up you may need to hit 'refresh' a couple of times. Or you can right click on the square and left click 'show picture'.
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  #47  
Old 06-24-2005, 11:10 AM
LarryBible
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Quote:
Originally Posted by R Leo
I guess Larry Bible didn't notice that you used Freeze12 in the repair.

Nice write-up. Thanks for taking the time and effort to produce that piece. I would like to point out that I didn't notice anything about changing the fittings or installing a sticker to alert later servicers that the refrigerant in the system has been changed from R-12 (required by law). If neither of these things have been done, subsequent owners stand a high likelyhood of unintentionally mixing refrigerants. Not a good thing.
You are right. As I said in my post, I quickly perused the info. I did not notice that it was a Freeze 12 job. As you wisely noticed, if there are no fittings and conversion sticker I would be very careful about posting this for public viewing. This system is in violation of FEDERAL law. FEDERAL law requires that any system with alternative refrigerant have the appropriate fittings and be labeled as a conversion. Violating Federal law is his business, but I hope that it is not noticed by the Federalies.

I still think that the write up and pictorials are well done and informative even if it is not done the same way I would do it. My hat is off to him for documenting the procedure. There is much of it that is helpful to folks regardless of what refrigerant or compressor they use.

Have a great day,
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  #48  
Old 06-24-2005, 11:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LarryBible
FEDERAL law requires that any system with alternative refrigerant have the appropriate fittings and be labeled as a conversion.
So, there are proper fittings for R-12 and there are different fittings for R-134.

What's the fitting for Freeze-12? A third type? Same as R-134? Where is it specified?
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  #49  
Old 06-24-2005, 11:52 AM
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These fittings rules are all to do with recovery. Most home DIYer's don't have to worry about this with freeze-12 or r-134a. The fed won't come after you. However if you decide to have work professionally done or plan to sell the vehicle they need to know that the fluid is different and need a special container of for that kind of refrigerant or mixed refrigerants to recover freeze-12. To facilitate this the government requires special fittings for each refrigerant type. I do not know if there is a standard freeze 12 fitting.

Most of these rules and regulations are to help professionals and discourage DIY'ers and supposedly save the ozone. While less ozone depleting r-134a which is 80% of freeze 12 and I assume the other component contain ozone depleters as well but are not as serious. However the government has decided that shops must recover them.

I don't believe the feds will come after DIYers unless you shine them on. Just look at the IRS and how many people still get away with not paying taxes or tax avoidance or honesty.
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  #50  
Old 06-24-2005, 12:08 PM
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Brian, on the site I referenced above concerning the Freeze12.... it shows the fittings which they sell with their installation kit...
Looks to me to be the 134a fittings... with the addition of the Freeze12 Notification label .....
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  #51  
Old 06-24-2005, 12:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Carlton
So, there are proper fittings for R-12 and there are different fittings for R-134.

What's the fitting for Freeze-12? A third type? Same as R-134? Where is it specified?
I think the recomended fitting for Freeze 12 is a garden hose fitting.





Just kidding.
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  #52  
Old 06-24-2005, 12:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leathermang
Brian, on the site I referenced above concerning the Freeze12.... it shows the fittings which they sell with their installation kit...
Looks to me to be the 134a fittings... with the addition of the Freeze12 Notification label .....
Yep.........that's what I figured.........thanks Greg.
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  #53  
Old 06-24-2005, 12:56 PM
LarryBible
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Yes, there are different fittings for ALL alternative refrigerants.

Regardless of the REASON that these fittings were made to be required, it is STILL a violation of FEDERAL law to convert a motor vehicle to an alternative refrigerant without using the correct fitting for that refrigerant. This is clearly spelled out in the EPA regulations and if I remember correctly is on the 609 test.

I sure would not want to try to explain to a Federal judge that the reason I did not abide by Federal law is that the law was conceived to aid a certain group. I don't think that very many attorneys would recommend that as a viable defense.

Best of luck,
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  #54  
Old 06-24-2005, 12:59 PM
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Larry, Are you saying that the freeze12 fittings are different from the 134a fittings ?
Or that all alternative refrigerants ( as a group ) have a different fitting from R12 ?
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  #55  
Old 06-24-2005, 01:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LarryBible
Regardless of the REASON that these fittings were made to be required, it is STILL a violation of FEDERAL law to convert a motor vehicle to an alternative refrigerant without using the correct fitting for that refrigerant. This is clearly spelled out in the EPA regulations and if I remember correctly is on the 609 test.

I sure would not want to try to explain to a Federal judge that the reason I did not abide by Federal law is that the law was conceived to aid a certain group. I don't think that very many attorneys would recommend that as a viable defense. I dare say 99% of the a/c dyi'ers violate some technical part of the regulations
I did not say it was not a technical violation of federal law. I'm just stating the intent of the law and that a DIY'er is not likely to have issues with their local US attorney unless they are selling their services or egging them on. As a courtesy though you should follow the regulations for other's sake.
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  #56  
Old 06-24-2005, 01:13 PM
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You know what would be really cool? If one of you guys who thinks this pictorial is incorrectly done take the time to put a similar operation the correct way.
I am absolutely what one would call a 'noob DIYer' and this conflicting information is rather maddening.
I do, however, appreciate the informed and impassioned debate.
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  #57  
Old 06-24-2005, 01:21 PM
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Stockdad. I think most of us agree that what Giant did is acceptable for a DIY'er and a great presentation. Actually he used recovery equipment for the r-134a which most of us DIY'ers will not do. His pictorial is excellent. I think everyone also agrees that it is a bad idea to mix refrigerants. If you are going to change the refrigerant then evacuate, refresh(flush system and change drier) and change it.

People stating the letter of the law for EPA is a lot like the IRS. If you talked to 10 different tax lawyers or environmental lawyers you would get 10 different opionions on what is or is not legal. The 609 regulations are to make it a challenge for DIY'ers to get r-12(I got my certification and r-12 to do it the more conventional way) and to encourage shops to use good practices. However I have never heard of a serious prosecution and I know there are mvac and hvac shops who undoubtly violate these regulations. The regulations are more to make the tree huggers in this country and europe feel good.
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Retired: 95 E320 157K miles and currently parked with blown engine

Both retired cars are for sale as is my w124 shop inventory

Last edited by DieselJim; 06-24-2005 at 01:57 PM.
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  #58  
Old 06-24-2005, 01:33 PM
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That being said I am not offering legal advice. I am just stating common sense. If you want to be safe always CYA.
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Retired: 95 E320 157K miles and currently parked with blown engine

Both retired cars are for sale as is my w124 shop inventory
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  #59  
Old 06-24-2005, 01:43 PM
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Stockdad.... I am on a very slow dialup and have problems getting all of his pictures to load... and if they do we are talking about 15 minutes plus...
He was going great all the way to where his R12 tank was empty and instead of getting the R12 to replace it he chose the Freeze12...

But for the benefit of " onlookers" to a site.... I do think it was important for me or someone to throw up a red flag about that choice..... it left the impression that ... and they actually say it on the site... (hoping that the further implications which go with those words will influence people...) ........." direct replacement for R12 "....
Too easy for those who have not studied the situation to take that to mean ' exact replication of physical properties' ... which it is not...

People who know me and my 240 know that I have been planning on doing a complete instruction thread concerning fixing my AC.... but it turned into a bigger project once Dmorrision posted the thread about how dirty the fins inside his evaporator were... which I immediately decided was a necessary part of doing my AC correctly.... then farm stuff kept happening....It is still on my list....
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  #60  
Old 06-24-2005, 01:45 PM
LarryBible
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I am not offering legal advice either. I am only paraphrasing what I read in the EPA rules. It is very clear.

Also, there is NOTHING wrong with the pictorial. It is EXCELLENT IMHO. There are only two issues as related to the selected refrigerant that have been debated here.

Have a great day,
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